Letters to the Editor
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Hi Aycharach
I mean from the Islamic point of view.
That said, I still do believe in the existence of morality, including a sexual morality.
So you can still have something to hold against me :)
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To stackey-dackey
Uh, next time you read what I was saying about slavery, try considering I was being sarcastic.
The rest of what you wrote is nonsense. The choice is not as you would put it either believe Islam is a terrible horrible misogynistic and racist mess OR believing that magical peace rays shoot out of every Koran. There is a whole range of issues and a whole range of beliefs.
To take the politically correct point of view and ram it down our throats without the slightest lubrication, well that's just intellectual ____, thought policing, and speech policing.
The offense here is to say that people cannot have legitimate concerns or questions even without their being accused of being racists or misogynists themselves.
Google fallacy of the excluded middle. You'll see your name alongside it.
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Very well said Tina Schrier....
I can't give you a red star for that last post, but I can give you a black star (best I can do.... :))
Here you go: *
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tina schrier
You can stop reading whenever you want. However, Sikhism does derive partly from Islam.
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@tina
OK, you have your very personal reasons for rejecting Islam. Fine and good, and I pretty much sympathize with them, let me make it clear that most if not all cultures that also practice Islam are indeed horribly sexist and misogynistic. Though of course the real life situations of real people are a good deal more complex than broad generalizations: I personally know plenty of very henpecked Muslim men that live in terror of their spouses, mothers, and mothers in law. And very good men that love their daughters and spouses and mothers and would never dream of any of the shit that keeps getting portrayed as typical muslim behaviour.
But this:
"When it happens within Islam, AND Islam the religion is clearly playing an integral part, the liberal community suddenly uses all excuses and prevarications of the weirdest kind. I really really do not get it. Even political correctness cannot explain this to me.
Well, it isn't all excuses and weird prevarications, sometimes it is an attempt to recognize nuances and build bridges, and to avoid blind hatred and division. The problem is that while we aren't yet at a "clash of civilizations," some of the nastiest people on both sides would very much like to get us there. Make it crusaders versus infidels, misogynists vs the morally corrupt, whatever. I for one think we ought to be profoundly reluctant to feed that fire, to demonize and caricature, to take very large and complex situations and stereotype them down to bad and good, us and them, black and white.
It isn't helpful, to feed the demonization of the other, when we since the Enlightment have mostly been winning by inclusion and acceptance.
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Again!!
I personally know plenty of very henpecked Muslim men that live in terror of their spouses, mothers, and mothers in law. And very good men that love their daughters and spouses and mothers and would never dream of any of the shit that keeps getting portrayed as typical muslim behaviour.
That's beside the point, Canuckistan Bob. Goddamnit, it's beside the point!
There must be thousands of Republican evangelical christians who are very good fathers, very good wives, very good husbands, true, loyal, and loving. And?
They tend to vote a certain way, and they do things like accuse homosexuals of having an agenda, back people who are actively trying to deprive women of their rights, and generally perpetuate hatred by buying wholesale into their pastors' belief systems. It's a problem, Bob. It's not the point that they're doing right by their wives, who may be overbearing, or caring for their children properly.
If you think we can somehow weed out all the bad apples while simultaneously "respecting" this important cultural religious group, you're delusional, and I think you can see the folly there, Bob. If you think we have to accept nonsensical beliefs because it's not feasible to cut out all the bad parts, you're part of the problem.
I'm not advocating any bombing of anyone or anything, because I don't think that's civilized, but I see no problem with questioning irrational, anti-humanistic bullshit whenever we can, and getting to the root of the issue while we're at it. It's what I call arguing against what's wrong. It's what you call cultural insensitivity.
And one more thing, and I can't stress this enough - because you personally know people who do not interpret thier religion in ways that cause them to treat their wives and children like shit does not mean that the religion is not generally conducive to such behavior. Quit playing dumb. I know you have muslim friends that you like, and good for you. I'm sure they are fine people, but they'd still be fine people without the baloney, just as the evangelical fathers of the year would.
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And I agree...
I for one think we ought to be profoundly reluctant to feed that fire, to demonize and caricature, to take very large and complex situations and stereotype them down to bad and good, us and them, black and white.
I agree with you, Canuckistan Bob, but there has to be a line one draws. The enlightenment wasn't just about inclusion and acceptance. It was also about the increasing disregard for illogic and the shifting of society away from religious fanatics.
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@ Canuckistan Bob...
all you say is very very true on all points, including the henpecked men. I too have seen the "nice guys" get terribly harrassed, even physically abused by their women.
You have to remember that very unhappy women who have to live through their men will turn on all the control games. This is an unexpected twist in living in the gender apartheid world of fundie Islam--it's also a huge pain for men. Think about it:
Miserable women picking on you. Having to take your mom, your sister, your wife, out to the market, to go visiting or even to the movies or just being the driver/chaperone if they want to go anywhere. Huge financial responsibilities from an early age, which the women in the family will never help alleviate. Women, kept in a state of childlike dependence, acting like children their whole lives (a common complaint of Muslim men). Having to break up fights when the women, bored to tears or whatever, are at each other throats. Coming home to whining and constant complaints and everybody needing something. Muslim men of different cultures will privately complain bitterly about all these things, but not to outsiders.
Being a fundie Muslim just sucks, even if you're a man. of course it sucks even worse if you're the woman.
Because everybody stands to benefit from increasing freedom for women, it's my belief that that specific form of fundie Islam which is pretty much tied together by strict enforcement of gender apartheid, i.e. Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, is doomed to failure and will die out on its own, unless the West overreaches and inspires a backlash (which has already happened). We can see from the new Broadsheet post about the ban on driving being possibly repealed, plus the Qirl of Qatif's sentence being commuted, that the West should not stay silent and it does make a difference to speak up. BUT it is also easy to push people in the other direction.
Right now, the single greatest thing that could help the West gain stature in the eyes of the Ummah would be to do something real and substantial to force Israel to finally stop their genocide-by-inches of the Palestinians. That would take 90% of the wind out of the extremists' sails. They would have to finally stop arguing that Western influence is an evil thing based on hypocrisy.
I too think we need to avoid the clash of civilizations mentality, which is why Hirsi Ali's recent comments have been more and more worrying to me. I used to be on board with her message, but given her recent rhetoric and her choice of venues, I can't say I am any longer.
BTW I always appreciate your experience and your insight, even if we don't always agree :)