I think trying to force a person fully capable of thinking for herself to follow religious observances is a form of tyranny. That would include having to go to church. Church is a religious observance. To me, a household rule is along the lines of pick up your clothes rather than throw them on the floor. Household rules allow the home to function more smoothly for everyone. Trying to force a fourteen year old into a religious mode violates the First Amendment. The only reason to force a child to go to church is if that child is too young to be left at home on her own.

I never said otherwise. Though the girl who was murdered apparently did have problem with it.

Also, regarding this - 'You don't feel oppressed by wearing a shirt when Men aren't expected to.' I said I didn't feel oppressed by having to wear a shirt at work. Where I work, men are expected to wear shirts.

If you want to think in terms of universals here are a couple: Freedom - this girl should have had the freedom not to wear a hijab, equality - women should be treated equally to men. These are universal in that I don't respect any culture insofar as they disregard these principals.

Great stuff. Thanks for the link.

I was especially struck by the argument that we--feminists-- "are all these women have". It's true. The niqabi sisters aren't going to be there for the honour killing victims. We have a responsibility to speak up loud and clear.

So if you think that a parent should not force a child over the age of 14 to follow a relgious observence do you think this parents have a right to make there children observe any house hold rules. Our family rule is everyone goes to church on Sunday. This even applied to my until recently athiest husband.

From an article by writer Morgaan Sinclair that everyone should read, especially the cultural apologists:

"Yet every time some woman dies over a head scarf, over choosing her own mate or boyfriend, over alleged sexuality outside marriage, we get the hordes of Islamic representatives coming forward in a deliberate attempt to deflect any and all responsibility — and therefore block any and all change. We get a deliberate attempt to prevent the an end to the violence and insane control of women issuing straight from the misogynist imams preaching from half the mosques in the United States and Canada by denying that it has any source in the religion at all. There was never blacker lie told.

What we get instead is the Islamic double-speak that a girl is dead because it’s just “domestic violence” — with the point endlessly being made that if we even allow ourselves to think otherwise we’re being bigoted — that if we point out that there have been more than 11,000 Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11 by people who say they are Islamic attacks, we are being culturally or spiritually intolerant. [Apparently they can say it, advertise it, put out recruiting videos about it, but if we say it, we’re Islamophobic. Oh, yeah, right.]"

And:

"Until then, it is our responsibility to jeer at this double-speak and to stop playing sanctimonious cultural relativism games with the lives of young Muslim women, because we — not the spiritually supremacist and sanctimonious authors of the next suck-up “What my hijab means to me” puff pieces for the local newspapers — are mostly all these women have, because the Fatahs and Hassans of our cultures (ed.: critics who have pointed out that her murder was based on preached Islamic ideology) are few and far between and under constant pressure and death threat."

www.bloggernews.net/112391

Don't buy the puff pieces about hijab. Read the reality.

Yes, that's the part I'm against. I've said it numerous times.

"You apparently find me inconsistent. I like to think I am using my judgement based on the world I live in."

You don't feel oppressed by wearing a shirt when Men aren't expected to. Many women don't feel oppressed by wearing a headscarf when men aren't expected to. If you can't see past the world you live in as being some universal truth there is probably a lot in this world you are missing.

This is a good example:

"What I've noticed about the local high-school Muslim girls:- Molded clothes that reveal T&A to the max...but they wear the hijab, so they're "okay". Some weird kind of compromise..."

Or maybe just a different cultural expectation of modesty. A good friend of mine spent two years teaching in Egypt and noted the phenomenon -- girls/women dressed in snug or short or tight clothes and a headscarf.

It is reasonable that people make assumptions based on their own experience, but its not always accurate when they do.

What I've noticed about the local high-school Muslim girls:- Molded clothes that reveal T&A to the max...but they wear the hijab, so they're "okay". Some weird kind of compromise...

The hijab is quite definitely oppressive and despite all those reassuring words from Muslim spokespeople in Mississauga, the fact is that "honor" killings are not uncommon, less so among immigrants here (Canada) than in the old country, where they're a matter of course and don't make the news, but they do happen here on a fairly regular basis. Just recently a woman in Ottawa was killed by her brother and in B.C. another young woman killed by her father. (Not hijab-related, but a similar matter of the women acting independently.)

Of course, the regular homicides by husbands against wives who leave or who are perceived not to be sufficiently submissive-wife are so common in our majority culture that they scarcely make the headlines... Though the need for 24-hours news channels are making some high-profile cases, like the Peterson thing in Chicago, impinge upon the general consciousness...

Trudy,

I am expected to wear a shirt wear I work and no, I don't feel oppressed by that. If I was expected to cover my head with a hijab, I would feel oppressed. If you can't appreciate the difference that's your problem. They aren't the same to me, your debating gymnastics notwithstanding.

As far as this, 'When I was fourteen I wasn't allowed to wear shirts that showed my bra strap. Do you look down on my Mother for that?'

Answer - yeah, somewhat. If she forced you to wear a burkha, I'd think much less of her though.

You apparently find me inconsistent. I like to think I am using my judgement based on the world I live in.

By the way, if girls got killed for showing their bra straps, I hope you would be against that too.