The pope WAS talking about Plan B as well as RU486. As far as the fundamentalists and Catholics are concerned, life begins at conception, not implantation. That means that any form of birth control that kills or causes the body to reject a fertilized egg is an abortifactant. I would hope that Reuters would be responsible enough to address this controversial idea in their article, but apparently they would rather let their readers continue to be confused.

is that even the regular old birth control pill can keep an embryo from implanting if there is a failure and ovulation occurs. I don't even know if that's true, but we were taught that this made it an abortofacient - so as far as the Pope is concerned, there is only one kind of Pill here, and no matter how many names it has, it's still an abortion. I agree that Reuters reporting about this without actually trying to define the medical terms is pretty ridiculous, though. Is Reuters Catholic? (And does the Pope shit in the woods?)

I'm always 'all ears' when a person who can never be in a relationship that would produce children & if they were, could afford 100 of them, is so eager to pass judgement on those who don't have the luxury of their own religion/religious minions to pay all their bills.

Don't worry about feeding/clothing that kid, Jesus will provide.

Plan B and normal birth control pills prevent ovulation. They do not prevent implantation of a fertilized embryo. Ironically, "Natural Family Planning" (the updated rhythm method) is now connected with preventing a fertilized embryo from implanting.

These religious folks are just full of nonsense on all counts. They care little or nothing for accuracy or even the fulfillment of their own supposed principles.

What on earth are you talking about, Pyrian?

What on earth are you talking about, Pyrian?

There's only a relatively brief window of time after ovulation during which the uterine wall will accept implantation of the embryo. The embryo can still fertilize after that window, but you can't get pregnant. NFP as now practiced is likely to routinely result in embryo death due to failure to implant.

You're sort of right. Both birth control pills and Plan B are believed to act primarily by preventing fertilization (in the case of the birth control pills, they even prvent full formation of the egg). But... you knew there was a "but", didn't you... it is believed (suspected? hypothesized?) that in some cases both the pill and the morning after pill have the "last resort" effect of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. It isn't known for sure whether this happens, but the Catholic church doesn't worry about details like that.

A better treatment than I could give:

http://jme.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/32/6/355

but the fact that the 'rhythm method' (are we talking about that or NFP - because they are two different things) might rely on embryonic death is interesting, but inconsequential. The issue is that an IUD causes embryonic death every time (we hope) because of human technology, whereas if an embryo dies because an ovum is too young or a sperm too old, that is God's choice.

Now, as a good little atheist, I see the whole thing as ridiculous. However, I don't think we can logically say NFP *causes* embryonic death anymore than just having sex causes it. This article is a potentially interesting way to point out the absurdity of Catholics' hair-splitting - but there are plenty of Catholics who already think NFP is wrong because you should let God plan your family anyway. So arguments like this aren't going to convince Catholics to use IUDs; they're only going to convince them that even natural family planning is wrong. Medical ethics my patoot!

Plan B works by preventing OVULATION or FERTILIZATION. That is what it does 89% when taken correctly.

It *may* sometimes prevent implantation of an already fertilized egg. The science is inconclusive. It does not interfere with an already established (implanted) pregnancy.

From Barr Pharmaceuticals, Inc.: http://www.go2planb.com/ForPharmacists/AboutPlanB/faqs.aspx

So, the difference between Plan B and RU-486 is even bigger than Ms. Price writes here.

Thank you for your reply, melthough. I absolutely agree that the hardcore religious right is never going to be convinced by the sort of nuance we're discussing here; they'll simply change the goalposts, and like you said they're already arguing that normal embryonic death is natural and therefore there's nothing wrong with it.

However, I'm perfectly willing to hammer that point and force them to engage on those terms.

Right now, as we've seen right here, they're making fundamentally false claims that NFP is superior to the pill in that the pill causes embryos to die and NFP doesn't. There are people (possibly LOTS of people, some of them even atheists) that are far more likely to buy that argument than to buy into the hair-splitting of: "well, when we kill embryos the old way it's okay but if we kill fewer embryos with 'unnatural' technology that's NOT okay".

I think it's better if the discourse includes the fact that embryo death is a common, natural occurrence that can frequently occur without ever being noticed. Then, the religious folks are left arguing not that technology is wrong because of its consequences, but that technology is wrong simply for being technology (this is, of course, exactly what they believe deep down). That's an argument they'll lose most of their adherents with. Their followers can relatively easily be convinced that "murder" is wrong (not exactly a stretch, right?), but aren't going to so easily accept that progress itself is inherently wrong.

"well, when we kill embryos the old way it's okay but if we kill fewer embryos with 'unnatural' technology that's NOT okay".

To "good" Catholics (97% of American Catholics use artificial birth control), this is exactly the point. In fact, it's frickin' theology! It's not that all birthcontrol is bad in Catholic thought, only ARTIFICIAL birth control--anything that puts the conception of life in OUR hands and not in God's hands.

It's not about life, it's about control. To the Catholic way of thinking, God will decide if you can support another child. God will decide if it's going to kill you to bear another. If you die--or if the embryo does--it was God's will and too damned bad for your other children and spouse.

They say it is about life. It's really about control. Their control. Catholics? Control issues? Say it ain't so!