Letters to the Editor
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But Allie, where are the men of Salon who don't think like the men who mostly post on Broadsheet?
If they believe that women should have rights and be treated decently, why do they so rarely post here?
As far as I know only one man in this thread was able to discuss the issue without misrepresenting the posts of women or becoming abusive or issuing lots of off-topic challenges. (It is a long thread so I could be wrong. If so, my apologies.) Remember that, if you look beyond all the heavier scientific things, this was basically a thread about a study that says that men talk as much as women.
I don't notice many silent types here, and yet men got upset at the mere prospect that they might talk as much as women and then hastened to explain that they talk about better or different things. Real Name said he does not listen to women after the first few seconds. So here you have men insisting that even in the most trivial ways they MUST NOT BE LIKE WOMEN. What dreadful thing do you think will happen to them if it really does turn out that they talk just as much as we do?
Their reaction was sometimes the panicked equivalent of an ten year old boy hanging a NO GIRLS ALLOWED sign on his playhouse.
Behind every hate there is fear.
I hope you like the movie. I always enjoy your posts and take your opinions seriously. Also, I am very glad you have a nice husband.
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Ben Dover isn't a Man
And all men aren't Ben Dovers. How do I know? I happen to be male.
I also happen to be Allie's husband.
Allie often talks to me about the discussions on Broadsheet, which has led me to read a number of them, which has, in turn, led me to be angry at the behavior of the males who post here regularly. Unhealthily angry, no doubt.
I've wanted to post in response to them for some time, but Allie didn't want it to seem like I was the "big brother", coming down to the playground to beat up the bullies, so I've restrained myself.
AKA Smith, after reading your letter, I feel like I can comment without it seeming like that.
I'm very sorry you feel that way about men. I can certainly see how there's plenty of evidence to support your view. Thankfully, it's still not true.
See, guys aren't all jerks. Men aren't all what you accuse them of being any more than all women are any of those stereotypes that your cowboys think they are.
You mentioned me having thoughts like Ben Dover has. Want my thoughts? I think that from what I've seen, he's a petty, under-endowed, insecure worm not fit to be called a human, let alone a man. Agree with him? Not hardly.
Feminism is one of those things that could be considered "advanced culture". It, like all other types of equality in thinking, takes a certain level of social and intellectual development for a person to accept it. I don't think it's too surprising that many men, even the majority of men, aren't at that level of development, since I don't think most women truly are, either. If they were, they wouldn't believe that all men are just hateful asses. :)
Don't give up hope quite yet, Smith. There are good guys out there. Guys that enjoy the sound of cicadas, the color of the sky just before sundown, the ducks at the pond, wildflowers, and your writing, just as much as you do.
Give some of them a chance.
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re: teen boys and sex
This is biological - it's a fact that teenage boys are the most unfortunate looking creatures on earth and older men are hot, just as it's a fact that teenage girls are hot and women past menopause aren't sexually appealing to most men. A little thought will tell you that this isn't maliciousness on anyone's part, it's evolutionary: in a natural state, men prove themselves before mating, so that only the best men mate, and women mate young and prove their fitness as parents by living through childbirth and keeping their progeny alive.
However, we're a long way from a natural state. Women past the age of fertility now want to marry. Teenage boys can now get laid without getting anyone pregnant. It would be nice, therefore, if someone wanted to screw these people. But I wouldn't bet on the situation changing any time soon - sexual desire is more instinctive than logically controlled. Give it a few thousand years.
(P.S. I confirm that Rhedd is in fact my husband. Can you tell we have cicadas outside at the moment?)
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men have to prove that they can do something for women that women can't do for themselves or that other women can't do for them in order to have any chance of reproducing
very often this challenge is not handled well.
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I thought the quotes around malicious would make the meaning clear
I'm talking about the facts which underlie the evolution of certain instinctive emotional tendencies, not a prescription for living now. It's similar to the fact that the human body has evolved to store as much fat as possible given the opportunity, it may no longer be desirable but whatever you are trying to do you it will work better if you take reality into account.
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it seems we agree on the basic facts
so I'm a little mystified that you seem to find what seem to me to be very obvious consequences of those facts worthy of comment or surprise. Given what you yourself describe as the actual situation it seems impossible that anyone could fail to see that the attitude of teenaged boys and former teenaged boys would be AT LEAST as hostile, negative, insensitve, etc as that of a girls and women who spent their teenaged years fighting off old men.
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yet somehow, most men turn out pretty decent
So that can't be used as an excuse.
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haven't you read
Deborah Tannen?
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it's no excuse
re Deborah Tannen. Haven't read it, heard some about it, do you mean that men don't turn out decent, or decent but fucked up?
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Broadsheet Not Representative
So I'm a progressive with an appetite for politics. I found Salon based on my politics. I started reading and posting on Broadsheet, because I couldn't believe the views what were being published here, and the "you go girl" attitude of the women posting. Todays summary: I would be surprised but not shocked if it were true men were as verbal as women, but whatever the case it would only be based on MY experience. The problem of course, is this shoddy study does little to settle the issue, so the women all join in and say "I knew it" and the men say "you got to be kidding". Then AKA tells us more about her life and yada yada yada. I guess the point of this post is, the men here no more reflect "normal men" than the women reflect "real women". Broadsheet truly is a pink ghetto and brings out the worst on both sides. What would be truly interesting ? Do some actual real reporting on these gender issues without bias, rather than merely distributing whatever todays subject is from the feminist echo chamber.