I wrote:

"It's interesting that no one can dispute my fundamental position, which is, "animal-source food contains unique nutrients that are not found in plant foods."

You replied:

"No, it's not very interesting. Any well-read vegan knows about B12; you're not delivering any earth-shattering news here. And all the other "unique nutrients" you're excited about can be found in plant foods by combining them."

Unfortunately, no amount of plant "food combining" (whatever that means) will produce the vitamins and other nutrients I mentioned previously.

"What the plants don't come with are concentrated toxins."

Just because toxins are present in food due to unfortunate problems with pollution doesn't change our body's requirements as omnivores. We need to work on cleaning up the toxins in our environment.

Even so, it's possible to get meat from cattle who graze on pristine, remote pastures. "Organic" meat is not good enough, because it often comes from cows eating grain.

It's interesting that no one can dispute my fundamental position, which is, "animal-source food contains unique nutrients that are not found in plant foods."

No, it's not very interesting. Any well-read vegan knows about B12; you're not delivering any earth-shattering news here. And all the other "unique nutrients" you're excited about can be found in plant foods by combining them.

What the plants don't come with are concentrated toxins. The food chain is what it is. Toxins that are present in negligible amounts in plants are much more concentrated in animals' fatty tissues; this goes just as much for so-called "organic" meats since pesticides, herbicides, and other toxins dependably drift into the fields of organic farms. The Environmental Working Group found multiple pesticides even in organic produce, albeit in lesser amounts than in regular produce. That's still getting concentrated in your meat whether it's from a small farm or Oscar Mayer, and unlike with produce, you can't "wash off" the toxins from meat.

Thanks for your concern, but I'm doing fine with my "meat addiction." LOL. It's interesting that no one can dispute my fundamental position, which is, "animal-source food contains unique nutrients that are not found in plant foods."

I have not attacked anyone's way of eating; I think many people are fine on a vegetarian diet, and some are even fine with being a vegan.

However, there is a sizable number of ex-veg*ns who were eating whole foods, even fat-rich diets, but for whatever reason could not thrive eating this way.

Going meat-free is not for everyone. Bottom line, take what the "experts" say with a grain of salt, and always listen to what your body is telling you.

I admit to coming away from this discussion with a great sense of pity for DQ.

First of all, she now admits to being addicted to meat. She HAS to have it every day. Being an addict is a sorry state for anyone. Doesn’t matter whether it’s meat, ice cream, chocolate, or sprouts. To REQUIRE a specific food every day in order to feel good is not the sign of robust good health, it’s a sign of something wrong.

Second, she is clearly swinging from one extreme to the other. No doubt when she was eating an extremely low-fat and vegan diet, she was utterly convinced of the rightness of it and was loaded with armfuls of evidence that she accepted to support that diet. It didn’t work for her (not surprising, it sounds horrendous), and now she’s swung almost totally in the opposite direction: REQUIRING meat every single day…and, of course, is utterly convinced of the rightness of it and is loaded with armfuls of evidence that she accepts to support it.

Reminds me of my brother-in-law. At one point a militant vegetarian (with the requisite surety of its rightness and an endless supply of scientific evidence for its appropriateness), it didn’t work for him – I’m not sure why. He swung as far in the other direction as he could go, to not only eating animal products as his main staple, but raising it himself. Predictably, he is now sure of ITS rightness and has all the evidence he needs to support it. He was staunchly atheist; now he’s staunchly born-again Christian, and is absolutely positive that he was absolutely incorrect last time (even though he BELIEVED he was absolutely correct last time) and is, predictably, absolutely correct THIS time.

There is an overwhelming need of these people to be thought of as “right” and to not stop until everybody either acknowledges that or gives up trying, and to always, ALWAYS have the last word. Look at DQ: since first writing in this thread, practically every other post is hers, insisting over and over of her correctness (THIS time, of course; her LAST extremism was, naturally, wrong and misguided!), ignoring many valid points because they don’t fit her latest extremism, and actively belittling or condescending to those who insist calling even one small part of her current views into question. Even saying, "I think you're right about A, B, C, D, and E, but perhaps not fully accurate about F" is a clarion call to them to jump on ASAP and attack until the attacker is sufficiently cowed (pardon the expression!) or bored.

People like DQ and my brother-in-law are pitiable because they fail to realize that by casting from one absolute to the next absolute, they become less credible with each swing of the pendulum. DQ ate a foolish diet (far more extreme than a standard Vegan diet, which is typically replete with nuts, soybeans and/or tofu, olives, avocados, and other extremely fatty, rich foods) and now condemns it; now she’s addicted to meat and condemns as misinformed anyone who thinks they can, or should, eat wonderfully well WITHOUT it.

In “anonymous”’s spirit of non-sarcasm, I wish only the best for DQ, and hope that whatever truth she finds, she can accept without needing the world to accept it as well.

"Veganism is a healthy diet, and the American Dietetic and Canadian Dietetic Associations concur."

I already explained in a previous e-mail why that's not necessarily the greatest endorsement of your diet.

"Veganism can win every argument save one: an individual's desire for the taste of animal products, an even then, there are faux meats and faux cheeses out there."

What argument have you made? All I keep maintaining is that animal-source foods have unique nutrients that are not found in plants. You cannot argue against that fact.

As for faux meats—you call that a healthy food? Last time I checked, even most vegans wouldn't touch them with a ten-food pole. They are loaded with crappy ingredients like isolated soy protein and MSG (especially the ones that say "No MSG"!).