Letters to the Editor
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Why is that?
The statistics I have seen are not broken down terribly finely. But I have seen stats and explanations that even for comparable jobs, the women do not have comparable experience in school and/or at that job. A lot of that IS because women do have to leave work to have their kids. And having left, a lot do not return for a substantial amount of time.
What I haven't seen broken down, is how this wage discrepancy varies across age, varies across number of children, varies across single/married, varies across size of company, and lots of other things.
Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not there. Only means I haven't seen it.
This topic has been discussed at TPMCafe, and also at the Glenn Sacks' blog, and also by Warren Farrell, and IWF, and by many other places.
It would be interesting to see Salon not just talk about this issue as though it were decided fact, but to actually explore the issue, and discuss a) what the fine level structure of the wage gap looks like, b) and discuss any proposed remedies.
Will Salon do that? That could help answer LeCastor's (and mine) questions and be a real benefit to the dialogue. Or will Salon just continue to rant?
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The king is dead, long live the king!
Does some book author du jour or newspaper columnist have to live in my shoes, with my husband and kids? No. That's for me... so it's also for me to work out for myself what is an acceptable balance between home, money, career challenge, personal happiness, and how big the laundry pile is. For any of these blowhard book authors to assume that they have the answer for me and my life (or for anyone else's life) is incredibly presumptuous.
And one reason that young women disavow the label feminist is the perception that modern feminism swaps out "control freak men telling me what to do" with "control freak women telling me what to do."
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LeCastor
you still haven't learned the basics of the wage situation. You write of "full-time" workers as though they all worked the same number of hours. They don't. The BLS reports that, among people who work full time, women work about 1 hour per day less than men do (7.1 hrs vs. 8.0 hrs). That's about a 12% differential. The 77% figure doesn't refer only to full-time workers, it refers to everyone who earns an income as well as those who don't. In short, it deals with gross earnings per year.
This is not difficult stuff, LeCastor. Feminists like Martha Burk are desperate to get us to believe that the wage gap comes from discrimination. It doesn't (although, as I said before, some miniscule percentage probably does). That is just more feminist dishonesty.
Let me tell you as simply as I can. It's easier to deal with facts and the truth than to try to make the truth conform to preconceived assumptions.
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Response to Anne
I think Anne asked the right question - why do men work so much more?
If I might choose a sample size of 1, I'll answer that question from a man's perspective. I work long hours at a fairly high paying job. I don't have a family, but when I do, I'll probably end up seeing them less than I'd like. Why?
Um, fear, mostly. Fear that I won't have enough for retirement. Fear that my parents will get ill and I'll have to pay for their medical care. Fear that I won't be able to pay for my (nonexistant) kids future colleges and (imaginary) dental care.
Next, freedom and independence. I want to know that some day, if I so choose, I can switch careers to that "fulfilling" job, while being able to deal with the fears addressed. I also like the feeling that I've done this on my own, and I won't have to rely on someone else (parents, nonexistant kids, relatives, the government) in the future.
Finally, a certain degree of ambition. I take pride in my accomplishments, and as a 3rd generation American, I want my generation to do better than my parents (and my nonexistant kids to do better than me).
The fact is, if I end up with a woman who makes a lot more than me, that would be great, but I don't think I could ever quit my job, because then I'd be reliant on her, and I just don't think I could cope with that. My ego wouldn't be able to handle it, my sense of independence wouldn't, and I'd fear that if something happened to her, I (and my nonexistant kids) be screwed. I don't think that makes me a bad person, it's just who I am.
I don't know how universal this feeling is, but maybe that explains why fewer men stay at home with their families (and not work). It's not that they see it as their wives' duty, it's just that they feel an overriding obligation to bring in income. It doesn't have to be the sole source of income, but it can't be no income either.
Just a thought.
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Well, i'm not going to wait for Broadsheet to do this, because you know, math is tough
So, let's get to it. The Bureau of Labor Statistics has all what we need anyway. Here's a document from 2004 (PDF):
Introduction and Highlights -- Women in the Labor Force: A Databook
http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-intro.pdf - 5/13/2004 6:19:55 PM GMT
what do we learn?
"Women and men with college degrees earned about 76
percent more than those with only a high school diploma,
in 2002. Nonetheless, female college graduates who were
full-time wage and salary workers had median earnings
of $809 a week, compared with $1,089 for men. (See
table 14.)"
"Differences between women and men’s earnings reflect,
in part, differences by occupation. For example, women
in professional specialty occupations (which typically
require at least a bachelor’s degree) have earnings that
are about 75 percent those of men’s—a difference due
partly to women’s concentration in lower-paying
professional occupations, such as nursing and
teaching. (See table 15.)"
"For example, in 2002, women employed in nonagricultural industries worked an average of 36.1 hours per week, although men worked an average of 41.8 hours. (See table 17.) "
Yes, women's average workweek is shorter, but that statistic isn't broken down into even relatively vague categories like "professional," which includes nursing and teaching. However, we can do a little math here, can't we, girls? Robert Franklin, pay attention. In general, women work 86% of men's workweek (36.1/41.8), but in general, they only earn 75% of men's earnings. According to Robert Franklin's logic that women earn less because they work less, those numbers should be completely the same.