Truthfully, I think that the manequins in stores are not a good representation of what the national average is, nor are they a good representation of what the clothes will look like on a real person.

If you look at the back of the mannequins, the clothing is pinned and tucked in to "fit" in the most flattering way. You can't trust them to show how the clothes will look on you.

That being said, the natural zero does exist. And it doesn't always look like the figure of a 10-year old boy. At 5'7" and 110 lbs, I am a size 0. Yes, I am thin, but I'm healthy and I do have a womanly figure, albeit a small one. (read slim hips and size A breasts). I know my size is nowhere near the average, but it's not only the freakish anorexic that can wear the size 0.

Mannequins for "plus sizes" are in fact about a size 10 or maybe a 12 at the very most. Some are even smaller than this. The main difference from regular mannequins is that they are proportioned more like regular women -- breasts are larger, hips fuller and stomachs more rounded. The legs are shorter and fuller.

Plus-size mannequins (like plus-size human models!) are NOT plus-sized and could never wear the clothes in question! The clothes need to be altered or pinned substantially to fit on the mannequins -- you can clearly see this if you are ever close enough to the mannequins or if you chance upon a display artist who is dressing and arranging a window.

It's some kind of holy, unalterable rule that the plaster manniquin for any particular type of clothing must be much, much smaller than the actual clothes and the actual customer. Presumably the sight of an average size (NOT fat) woman in actual clothes that would fit her is so horrifying that it would shock, blind or even kill a customer -- sort of like a Medusa head. To prevent this awful outcome, we must see clothing displayed on mannequins that are substantially smaller than the smallest size of clothing.

What I think this does, long term, is convey our sense of discomfort and dislike for the ordinary, average, healthy, normal human female body. There has to be a reason that what is normal has come to be reviled, and what that does long term to young girls -- in forming a healthy relationship with their bodies and with food -- and what it does to young men in forming a realistic idea of what constitutes an attractive woman.

I've never measured or anything so don't flame me if I'm inexact on the sizing, but has anyone else noticed that the mannequins in plus-size clothing stores (which carry sizes 14-28 generally) have mannequins that look to be about a size 8? Can those mannequins even wear the clothing being sold in those stores without extensive pinning?

For the poster who asked about where to shop, Mossimo at Target is in fact a Junior (or at least Junior-like) line and sized accordingly - I wear a size 4 most places but a 7 in their clothing. And some of the pieces are too revealing for me now that I am in my mid-20s and work in a chemistry lab (imagine wearing a mini while working with toxic liquids!) - not that I object to other people wearing it.

Ann Taylor Loft is good for women who want to be stylish but neither matronly nor teenager-like in appearance. Every store I've ever been to has a ton of stuff on sale including business apparel so maybe you should keep shopping there.

Banana Republic online also has special sizes including Petite and Tall which are not in the stores and a more extensive sale section so I'd try that as well.

I also like J. Crew for preppy casual wear but it's a little expensive - their final sales at the end of the season have good deals though often.

If you have a Loehman's near you, you might try that for evening wear or business apparel (or shoes, the shoes are great) - it's very hit or miss but they have great deals when you find something you like.

...but maybe the size of the mannequins doesn't have anything to do with what the "ideal sized woman" is supposed to look like? And maybe stores don't use small mannequins because they expect to only sell to small women? When I read this story my first thought was that maybe the mannequins were small so that more of them could be fit into a store window. Or maybe the smaller ones are cheaper? A big mannequin also probably takes up a lot of space that could be used for merchandise. Most of the stores that I go to don't even have mannequins, which I had just assumed was a cost and/or space issue.

"I wouldn't even want American retailers to try basing mannequin sizes on a "national average." I don't think the fashion designers can come up with clothing that looks good on everyone, and neither should they. Why do we even expect this?"

I expect that fashion designers should make clothes that look good because it's their goddamn job. Why should I be expected to pay money for clothes that don't fit and look bad? Or shoddy manufacturing.

Truthfully though I never judge how the clothes look on a mannequin, most of the times the dresser has pulled in and clipped up the clothes to look a certain way. You do need to try things on no matter what. Case in point, I tried on one pair of pants from a major retailer and they fit but I didn't like the color, so I got the same exact size and style in another color, but I try them on and they are a completely different size and fit. And no they weren't just mislabelled.

Some one mentioned Target's misses-womens clothing, I've found that depending on which brand it is, the sizes vary widely. I think the Mossimo brand is sized very small and not for women with hips also their pants all have very low rises. Those seem to be for juniors+. The Cherokee brand is more woman friendly, but borders on the matronly and downright ugly. I'm in my early 30's and a 6 - 8, but with a mature figure (read boobs and hips) I have a very hard time finding clothes that are stylish but professional. Ann Taylor Loft is probably the best I've found, but I can't routinely afford their clothes. Does anyone have other suggestions? I've tried:

Banana Republic - all sized for the tall and skinny

The Gap - the boyfriend pants? sorry, i'm not shaped like a boy.

Kohls - where i've found some items but they seriously lack 6 - 8 sizes and quality isn't too great

Macy's - which skews either way too young on the styles or way too old. They have a line of professional separates that are okay, but it runs to tapered pants in cheapish cloth.