Letters to the Editor
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Women and bad boys, men and bad girls
My ex dated a woman who emotionally blackmailed him into sex, a woman who broke his nose, and a psycho stalker. My husband's ex-wife is a compulsive liar. My housemate has dated so many crazy, bitchy or just plain nasty women, I can't keep track of them all. There is nothing gender specific about the compulsion to date sexy, dramatic people who are unstable and really, really bad for you. Women just get the press for it because when men date a lot of psycho women, they end up declaring that all women are psycho, and no one talks about the syndrome of nice girls being unable to get dates, whereas if women try to claim that all men are cadly bad boys, hordes of men will come out of the woodwork to declare that they're nice but women won't date them. (Nice men who are *getting* dates presumably have better things to do.)
It's really not true that women date exciting assholes and pass up nice sweet guys to any greater extent than men date sexy unstable bitches who are good in bed and pass up girls who are modest and a little shy. Or who, god forbid, are overweight. It's just that men are not *famous* for it, though given the dating track record of every man I know well enough to know his dating track record, maybe they should be.
I will say, however, that in my experience, women want men who are self-confident. Whether you're a Manly Man, a Sensitive New Age Guy, or any combination thereof, being confident in yourself and self-assured is an attractive quality. Men do not seem to value self-esteem in women the way women value it in men; thus the "nice" girls who can't get dates are not the ones who are self-effacing but the ones who don't match some beauty ideal. Unfortunately this *does* mean that great guys who are shy and self-effacing won't do as well as assholes with egos the size of Australia, but it doesn't mean that what women are *looking* for is assholes.
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Hey Brian
You write: "You say, '[y]es, some women have a thing for cads,' thereby defining 'manliness' as 'cadliness.'"
Nope! "Cadliness" directly, and clearly, followed my (somewhat sarcastic) mentions of "bad boys" and "jerks." Thereby defining cadliness as badboy-liness and jerk-liness, not manliness. Just wanted to set you/the record straight.
Thanks, everyone, for your comments.
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LOVE THE RAGE AND HYSTERIA
exhibited by some of the letter writers.
One is scared of other people's opinions that differ from hers. (shut him down)
Another wants to discredit Mansfield by citing his lack of skill at interviews. So he must not have any valid ideas unless he can utter them like Shakespeare? More lib snottiness.
Having said that, I pretty much completely disagree with Mansfield.
Nothing worse than men being forced to 'act' like John Wayne for women's pleasure or because they are scared of what other men will think. Of course no thanks to feminism, men's roles have not only eroded, but feminists offer no valid answers, if anything forcing men into ever tighter, more stereotypical macho roles rather than opening up possibilities (oh feminists CLAIM they open up roles for men, but the evidence of what behavior women actually REWARD speaks for itself).
So what do women want? CW said it perfectly. Women, as teachers, encourage boys to act nice in school. The bullies ignore the women's comments and continue to act 'bad' or else rebel and act worse, the boys who were nice in the first place follow their teachers admonitions, to the detriment of the development of other (MORE IMPORTANT) traits that would actually make them attractive to women, namely the role of being a mindless macho stud.
Don't blame me and other truly 'nice' (formerly 'nice' for me thanks) men for being bitter if you women lie to your boys about what is important to you ALL.
Specifically? I guess most of you crave most highly a tight hot ass, charming dishonest conversation, and an irresponsible attitude.
What is the answer for men? There is none I know of other than to do what women want, not what they say they want. Men apparently need to become shallow hot looking irresponsible studs if they want a decent looking girl.
and that is what American society is slowly collapsing into, player man-boys who want nothing to do with marriage or responsibility. and not so coincidentally, the liberalism which spawned it is all but collapsing.
while I despise conservatism and its limited roles for men, I equally despise liberalism and its hypocritical and evasive stance and irresponsible behavior regarding men's roles.
we men who think and feel (and hurt) need a third alternative.
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I think we kind of agree...just not completely
"Its also true that young men are attracted to pretty women regardless of whether they are dumb as rocks or complete bitches, so to speak. Young women are punished for cultivating healthy personalities or a balanced roster of talents at the expense of looking their best all the time ("their best" being very thin with large breasts, ie. society's "their best").
Eventually smart, nice, sensible women may be rewarded for their choices, but isn't it understandable if bitterness sets in first?
The only difference seems to be that young men may be slightly more up-front about their tacky preferences than young women."
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Men do lust after attractive women. Skinny, large breasts, etc..physical attractiveness is the most dominant factor in most young guys choosing a partner. Men make no bones about it. A woman, however, is not "punished" for the traits that we otherwise suposedly value in a productive member of society. If she is attractive AND nice, then great. If she is attractive and mean, well, that is o.k. too. If she is attractive, AND dumb, or smart, etc...Its the attractiveness that matters to guys. Intellgence, achievment, and kindness are not contradictory traits to being physically attractive, just tangental ones.
Are men behaving in a shallow and superficial manner, yes, but not hypocritically, and they are not "punishing" her for her intelligence, niceness etc...just "rewarding" her attractiveness. Nearly all Men would gladly choose a nice, intelligent, attractive women, over a mean, and dumb, attractive women. Just not always the nice, intelligent, average-looking women over a mean, dumb, attractive women.
So, women are not "punished" for being nice and intelligent, just "rewarded" for being attractive. Thus, a Woman is sent the message that attractiveness is how she is valued by men-and to some extent society, and she could then understandably put her efforts into being attractive over cultivating her intelligence and finer achievments. We have overwhelmingly, and rightly, heard about the negativity of this scenario for the last 40 years. But, men, and society, do not tell her to behave in one way, and then sleep with the woman who behaves opposite of what they had just described. It is the percieved hypocrisy of the situation that is the core issue. The speaking out of the mouth, but voting with the vagina.
You admit to part of the story," The only difference seems to be that young men may be slightly more up-front about their tacky preferences than young women."