I'm not sure why these men are described as "old fashioned" for not wanting to have sex with an unwilling partner.

"Decent human beings" might be a better description?

I believe the comment was made somewhat tongue in cheek.

Is the human capacity to understand humor, sarcasm, dry wit, gone?

what a shame

and re: the story.

sad in a touching way, no?

Let's hope there's permanent improvement

the problem is that the tradtional guardians of morality, and now most feminists, want to prevent all prostitution, not just prostitution involving unwilling girls so they have every incentive to prevent the distinction between willing and unwilling to be made and acted upon as it will validate some prostitution i.e that involving willing adults.

it was intented entirely seriously. I don't belive the difference is based on tradtional vs non-tradtional though but on other cultural differences i.e the greater influence in Europe of feminism and puritanism.

""I've been very surprised," Marielle Lindstrom, head of the IOM in Turkey, told the Independent. "We haven't noticed this anywhere in Europe. Turkish men seem to have an old-fashioned view of women. They don't mind using prostitutes, but they want the woman to be doing this willingly. If she's found not to be doing it willingly…it affects their pride.""

Maybe someone can point out the sarcasm, the deft tongue-in-cheek here?

Good luck.

And, btw, if the 2nd post was trying to demonstrate an ability to read nuance, it failed rather miserably by interpreting my comment as some sort of ranting criticism of the author (who, you will notice, was not the person who made the statement about old-fashioned men).

It's a pretty wry comment to me. Meant to be sincere, but not literal. Duh, since an old-fashing man presumably would NOT condone prostitution.

Meant tongue-in-cheek (which is not quite the same thing as sarcasm) to distingush between the old/bad days when men where perfectly happy using prostitutes who appear willing (but were probably forced to choose that life because of adject poverty), and the new/bad days when they aren't even offended by the evident force and control.

It clearly wasn't meant to be literal since an old-fashioned man presumabley would not condone prostitution.

The woman who said it was trying to help the women. Getting all upset about her comment assumed disrespect that clearly isn't there.

I agree with lollybee and djbollman. The surprise of the commenter was all too real. It simply does not occur to many, including, sadly, many feminists, that johns want decent conditions for prostitutes, above all, a willingness to take on the work. It's not hard to fathom why this is so. Far too many want to believe that men's only wish is to dominate and oppress women and concurrently don't want to face the fact that many folks, mostly men, but suprisingly, numerous women, want and enjoy sex for it's own sake, that is, a pleasant physical interlude that does not necessarily involve fostering trust, communication and intimacy and that does involve a soupcon of beningn objectification.

"Turkish men seem to have an old-fashioned view of women. They don't mind using prostitutes, but they want the woman to be doing this willingly."

Old-fashioned or not, and however the speaker meant this, I say GOOD FOR TURKISH MEN.

I say good for Turkish men too.

And really - the division of certain women for sex and other women for family and children - that really is an old fashioned way of thinking.

or charge a price a lot higher than what prositutes charge. If they didn't here would be a lot less (I don't say none) prostitution. It's not all about "roles" being imposed on women by others.

This is a tangent, but:

Even a "willing" prostitute is not willing to have sex with her customers for free. If a man wants a genuinely enthusiastic, fully-participating, voluntary partner, he'll have to look outside the brothel.

Back to the Broadstreet item:

I think it's kind of cute and sweet...if you're going to go to a prostitute, it's better to go to one who's willingly taking money for sex and can actually keep her wages or a substantial portion of them.

job and someone who hates their job. Sure, even people who are happy at work would probably be somewhere else if they didn't need the money but there is still a huge difference between someone who clearly hates what they are doing and everyone and everything associated with it and someone who does not. Of course no one, other than someone so rich that money is meaningless, would pay for sex IF they could get the SAME thing without paying (the idea that someone would get some psychic benefit by paying for it makes no sense except in some ideologues fevered imagination), the idea is so absurd I don't see how any sane person would believe it, maybe no sane person does.

Though the fact that the patrons are willing to speak out on behalf of perceived victims, I think what is most interesting about this article is that PRIDE is a determining factor.

After living in Turkey for years, I am not surprised to see this word. Sex roles ARE still rigidly defined, and, in a very old-fashioned sense (as in, the oldest profession in the world) the visiting of prostitutes is a rite of passage. With attitudes about sex amongst the younger people changing, this is creating an interesting gap - how ever the madonna/whore complex is alive and well. No matter how "progressive" the younger generation might be, prostitution continues to exist NOT because people should be able to enjoy their sexuality and engage in a consensual sexual relation etc, etc, but because of societal conventions about how the sexes are allowed to relate to each other.

Prostitutes are often girls from outside the country, a Turkish girl wouldn't 'do' that kind of job - however, it is fine to hire a East European girl. The fact that these men are predominantly reaching out for help for these women is great, but I find it interesting that it is their pride overall that is the impetus for their call. Not to detract from the fact that they ARE calling, but I think their motivation is not only altruistic, it is also the result of a deeply imbedded culture of machismo. Of course an unwilling woman is not as good as a prone supplicant (real or perceived!), looking to meet your every need and desire.

Not to overlook the fact that they are making the calls, I think it is NOT necessarily an indication of how forward-thinking Turkish men are, but more a side effect of the cult of the pasha - all-powerful patriarch who is king of his household...