Letters to the Editor
-
let me clarify "good behavior is subjective"
Letting your kids scream or run around and so forth in any establishment is actively and inexcusably invasive to other patrons. My point was that there are many examples of behavior that might be bothersome to some that aren't to others. So don't quibble over the details, look at the bigger picture.
-
Hi BKLYN writer,
You stance is reasonable and well said, but, I'd like to add that, as evidenced by the reaction of the mother you mentioned, it is somewhat of a legal or, more accurately, a "perceived rights" issue. Parents do not have the legal "right" to bring their minor children to bars in the first. I don't know how some folks got that right into their heads. Breastfeeding once you get there is a dubious side issue. The rule is usually 18+ to enter and 21+ to drink. Now bars may allow parents to bring their minor children in with them in an effort to keep the peace or be good neighbors or whatever but that's a different matter.
-
if law were the issue, the cops woulda solved this problem a long time ago
I can't even begin to debate legality here. I was always told that no one under drinking age could sit at the actual bar, but I did not understand it to be true that the only people who could enter one had to be over 18 (except in the case of nightclubs). Perhaps you're a lawyer and understand this aspect of the issue better than I. I would imagine that bar owners would be setting themselves up for a lawsuit if they prohibited entry for anyone other than someone not legally entitled to be there, so maybe you're right.
It would be so much simpler if this could be reduced to a purely legal debate, now wouldn't it? Ah, the burdens of personal responsibility.
-
Ah, personal resonsibilty....
Usually cops are only going to isssue tickets/fines for underage drinking because that's the hard law. The other stuff is more of a wink and nod "spitting on the sidewalk" type of thing and I think it's for the best. You're also not going to see a successful discrimination suit because the 18+ to enter and 21+ to drink in NY is more business practice than law. The 21+ to drink is the hard law. Regular bars and nightclubs usually go with 18/21 while resturants like say...TGIF, that have bar areas or serve alcohol, usually go with okay for kids so long as they are accompanied by parents. Besides, there's no constitutional right to take minors to bars such that by not allowing them you're violating somebody's civil rights.
-
ah no Kstone I fear you are being dense on purpose (or is it just habit?)
your first post to which I replied said "But apparently, you don't know the difference between public places (e.g. the street) and places that serve the public (e.g. a bar)." And in mentioning the IRVIS decision, I was pointing out that there is not the hard and fast distinction you suggest. A place that is open to the public is open to the whole public. I am quite familiar with this concept, but you seem to need a lesson.
Now what I did not say is that age is a protected category under the 14th Amendment (though it is included in some civil rights laws--though mainly to prevent discrimination against older, not younger, citizens). I am not saying children have a cause of action to sue a bar that refuses to admit them.
However, there is freedom of travel in this country, to go about the streets and shopping plazas etc, so long as you don't present a security threat or present reasonable suspicion that you have comitted a crime. So generally the public has a right to go hither and yon. Not in my house, but in my place of business if I let the general public in. I don't have the right to have my way all the time, but I do have the right to make my way around in public places, and so do my kids. Even if the mere thought of being in the presence of kids sets your teeth on edge.
I don't take my kids to places that serve nothing but alcohol, though I imagine a situation (say after a softball game perhaps) when I might want to bring them along. I dislike the idea of a blanket ban.
-
my bar experience
I had to go spend a couple of hours in a bar recently because of a work obligation (too complicated to explain here). I got very little notice about this obligation, and spent two days burning up the phone lines and walked around the neighborhood in desperate search of a babysitter. Finally, at the last minute, I got lucky and made some kind of arrangement for someone to watch my small children, but it took a big, big effort.
There's no way I would have brought the kids to that dark and, for them, scary place, even though it was actually a quite upscale establishment. I don't know anything about this particular Brooklyn bar and what's been going on there. But my experience has been that, due to overly short notice from those who demanded my presence, I've occasionally had to drag my kids along to some boring business-related meetings and events.
My point is that onlookers shouldn't be too judgmental about parents with unhappy little ones in tow in adult venues. Maybe the parents HAD to be there for some reason and maybe they absolutely could NOT find a babysitter, which in my experience is always easier said than done.
-
Hi smithey, I see you're still at it.
"Your first post to which I replied said "But apparently, you don't know the difference between public places (e.g. the street) and places that serve the public (e.g. a bar)." And in mentioning the IRVIS decision, I was pointing out that there is not the hard and fast distinction you suggest. A place that is open to the public is open to the whole public. I am quite familiar with this concept, but you seem to need a lesson."
I'm not suggesting a hard and fast distinction. I used the street vs. bar example to illustrate that there are certain places open to the public, during the normal course of business/life, that usually don't limit the whole public (street) and there are others, that usually do (a bar), and absent certain issues (race, sex), while you might not like it, it's perfectly legal. If you think not, feel free to file a discrimination claim. Oh wait, you do realize you wouldn't have an actionable claim. Darn. I was really looking forward to reading about how not allowing 5 year olds in bars is a violation of their civil rights and illegal discrimination. Damnit they are part of the whole public and bars are open to the public, right?! How dare you deprived me of the pleasure of reading such a pristine argument!
Btw, thanks for telling me again that I'm on edge about the mere presence of kids. You know how it wounds me so. I never knew or thought I was, but, I guess you know better...lol