I completely agree with this. I have two children who are old now and I hope they learn to drink where I did, in some other kid's home while the parents are away. Really, why do I want a night out with other adults with my kids or anyone else's in tow at the local brew pub? We've made too many things acceptable to kids and forgotten that we are adults with adult activities and behavior.

someone has addressed this issue and it received national attention on Fox news this morning...12/21/05!

this is a COMMON problem/practice in touristland Florida...at one bar in Sarasota a kid was doing her homework, at the bar, while the parents got sloshed. My husband and I left disgusted (we were there for some adult time), but I confronted the manager on the way out re the inappropriateness of the situation...also think that there is a city/state law against kids sitting at the bar...anyway he had no clue and didn't care.

so glad to see Andy Heidel take a stand! Does the law in NY say anything about this behavior?

Warning, this is a pissed off letter.

Babies do not belong in bars. Sorry that there's not a surfeit of elegant places for you to take your children, but my neighborhood bar is not a choice for you. Sorry.

We have such a weird culture. People want to have kids and yet don't want to realize that there are changes, yes, inconveniences attendant on that choice. People! For cryin' out loud, there are those who don't choose to have children, what makes you think we want to be exposed to yours?

Seriously, I never wanted kids, what makes you think I want to see your infinks where I go to drink and have fun with yes, my adult friends. I don't find your children adorable, nor do I want to be around them. Sorry, but there it is.

Get a freakin' babysitter, and stop trying for the inclusion of your kids everywhere you go! Tell me you wouldn't have been annoyed by this intrusion before you decided to procreate your own damned selves. Your choice, yes, but don't force it down my throat, and hell no, do NOT look in askance at me when I don't fawn over your mewling brat, and when I look annoyed at their screaming because they're in a place where they shouldn't be in the first place. If only you'd had you had the sense to leave them home, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

And accept the fact that when you had the kid, it wasn't like getting a dog. There are sacrifices that accompany your choice, but that's what having kids is about, no? Sacrifices?

Just don't expect those of who don't choose to have kids to have to put up with your mostly whining brats. And if you do bring them, make sure you've trained them out of the overindulgence you seem to feel they're entitled to because they're "just so precious". I want a quiet dinner, minus screaming kids, in an adult environment that I feel entitled to. Take the brats to Chucky Cheese, or train 'em to keep their screaming mouths shut.

"Your first post to which I replied said "But apparently, you don't know the difference between public places (e.g. the street) and places that serve the public (e.g. a bar)." And in mentioning the IRVIS decision, I was pointing out that there is not the hard and fast distinction you suggest. A place that is open to the public is open to the whole public. I am quite familiar with this concept, but you seem to need a lesson."

I'm not suggesting a hard and fast distinction. I used the street vs. bar example to illustrate that there are certain places open to the public, during the normal course of business/life, that usually don't limit the whole public (street) and there are others, that usually do (a bar), and absent certain issues (race, sex), while you might not like it, it's perfectly legal. If you think not, feel free to file a discrimination claim. Oh wait, you do realize you wouldn't have an actionable claim. Darn. I was really looking forward to reading about how not allowing 5 year olds in bars is a violation of their civil rights and illegal discrimination. Damnit they are part of the whole public and bars are open to the public, right?! How dare you deprived me of the pleasure of reading such a pristine argument!

Btw, thanks for telling me again that I'm on edge about the mere presence of kids. You know how it wounds me so. I never knew or thought I was, but, I guess you know better...lol

I had to go spend a couple of hours in a bar recently because of a work obligation (too complicated to explain here). I got very little notice about this obligation, and spent two days burning up the phone lines and walked around the neighborhood in desperate search of a babysitter. Finally, at the last minute, I got lucky and made some kind of arrangement for someone to watch my small children, but it took a big, big effort.

There's no way I would have brought the kids to that dark and, for them, scary place, even though it was actually a quite upscale establishment. I don't know anything about this particular Brooklyn bar and what's been going on there. But my experience has been that, due to overly short notice from those who demanded my presence, I've occasionally had to drag my kids along to some boring business-related meetings and events.

My point is that onlookers shouldn't be too judgmental about parents with unhappy little ones in tow in adult venues. Maybe the parents HAD to be there for some reason and maybe they absolutely could NOT find a babysitter, which in my experience is always easier said than done.

your first post to which I replied said "But apparently, you don't know the difference between public places (e.g. the street) and places that serve the public (e.g. a bar)." And in mentioning the IRVIS decision, I was pointing out that there is not the hard and fast distinction you suggest. A place that is open to the public is open to the whole public. I am quite familiar with this concept, but you seem to need a lesson.

Now what I did not say is that age is a protected category under the 14th Amendment (though it is included in some civil rights laws--though mainly to prevent discrimination against older, not younger, citizens). I am not saying children have a cause of action to sue a bar that refuses to admit them.

However, there is freedom of travel in this country, to go about the streets and shopping plazas etc, so long as you don't present a security threat or present reasonable suspicion that you have comitted a crime. So generally the public has a right to go hither and yon. Not in my house, but in my place of business if I let the general public in. I don't have the right to have my way all the time, but I do have the right to make my way around in public places, and so do my kids. Even if the mere thought of being in the presence of kids sets your teeth on edge.

I don't take my kids to places that serve nothing but alcohol, though I imagine a situation (say after a softball game perhaps) when I might want to bring them along. I dislike the idea of a blanket ban.