you would think Katie Roiphe is the Anti Christ.

and this brings up a point, after reading over 100 letters responding to this article, I still have not found one interesting thing anyone said that truly challenged what Roiphe represents. Most either side with her or make some lame comment that she is not feminist after all.

What is so wrong, by the way, with a woman saying she should have equal rights in society AS WELL AS equal responsibilities? Isn;t this all she is saying? That women should take some responsibility for getting fall down drunk, assenting to sex, then owning up to their choice?

Or do you feminists who disagree think men should go back to treating women like irresponsible children, unable to make adult decisions or choices?

I suppose the correllary is that feminists are more than happy to keep men dangling in indecision as to whether ANY TIME is truly a good time where the consent is completely there. This is particuarly funny, because the vast majority of women both do not make the first move, expecting that this is the guy's responsibility, but then thay also piss and moan that guys are not being more forthright and making moves in the first place.

TO THOSE WHO WOULD LABEL MY ABOVE POST TROLLISH OR WOMAN HATING

or some other misbegotten insult, you know where you can go. I am making some valid points here.

1. How is any of what I say woman hating?

2. How is it you believe I should care what you think? You might also personally think Andrea Dworkin was a week kneed wimp when it came to bashing men.

Is it a shock when I say men just want nookie and women just want to pick ridiculous fights with men over nonexistent mirages of problems?

I do not have to respond to your posts.

and THAT'S IT

...and yes, I am doing what so many women do to men all the time (and thus proving YOU are wrong and I am right with regard to how many women MIStreat men)

This is not so in the spheres in which many women - as a gender - continue to be devalued: by their own governments, religions, and legal systems.

nobody can devalue women without the women's permission. GET OVER IT.

Mocking you because we think you're a very wounded dude with a sweeping gripe against all female-kind is NOT "bashing men."

So lemme get this straight. If ten guys all said the same thing I did, all ten guys are 'wounded' dudes. hundred, thousand...and so on. and so on

Also, you think it is OK to mock someone because they are down and hurting (not that I am down or hurting), which makes you a vulture.

You say 'sweeping gripe', yet sweeping gripes are the modus operandi of mainstream feminism. Or do you women not own up to that either?

Of course, you already ASSUMING and DECIDING I am 'hurting' also dismisses anything I say, instantly making it invalid in your mind, not worthy of further discussion. how conveeeeenient. how disrespectful of you too. I suppose you would agree in this modern gender-equal world that I should cavalierly just walk away from any woman with any complaint by waving my hand magically and attributing her complaints to her having been hurt, making them INVALID of course. (Oh I see, you want it one way but not the other).

and aren't I an evil thing to be actually calling you and yours on your bullshit. It is a much easier world for you women when you can just irresponsibly hiss your commands or declarations and make the men jump through hoops to fulfill them unflinchingly.

Hey, I am merely treating you like I would treat any guy who said the same things to me on this board as you have. it is called EQUALITY. or do you not want it?

I'm just bored and on a roll tonite. I am sure you are a decent girl in real life.

But I do think you (and other women too) need to begin to realize we men are not monolithic unhurtable tools.

you chicks all snigger amongst yourselves whenever a self important article like this comes out. "Hey let's laugh at the neanderthals again and poke'm with a stick, girls!"

(Hey, brightstar, chill out on that one. SO uncalled for.)

I happen to be one of those guys who resents being insulted. I cannot help that I do not have a vagina.

How'd you like it if some guy told you you were inadequate because you lacked a penis and balls?

an 'empathetic feminist' with regard to men

Your reactions are disproportionate, and all of your logic is emotional.

Your resentments overwhelm your reason, so none of your arguments stand alone.

By now everyone who talks to you knows this, even if they agree with you.

If you're suggesting that people should show compassion for the crazy guy on the subway brandishing the umbrella, well...OK.

But that doesn't mean we should just sit still and get poked with the umbrella, see?

But you see, all of what you just wrote about me could be written by most anyone today about how feminists are perceived to act by most people-- the emotional illogic, the simmering resentments, the disproportionate overreations-- meaning you justify my very position. Good for goose, good for gander.

You also say noone should sit still when being poked by an umbrella, empowering us men to do EXACTLY what I am doing on these boards, which is to lash back at the 'crazies on the train' as you put it.

But I bet you will twist this into something it is not, after all, Norah Vincent said one of the real weaknesses of women is an utter inability to put yourselves into men's shoes and see things from our point of view.

Man, you're easy

Ron

Paul