Winnie is arguing that GG is accusing Jewish Neocons of having double loyalties. This, as usual, is a lie. GG is accusing Podhoretz of being a hypocritical asshole. GG is accusing Podhoretz of asking Jews to develop a double loyalty. GG is not accusing anybody of actually having double loyalties, much as you would like him to so you could trash him.

Obviously not reading GG very thoroughly, nor Podhoretz's article, Winnie did not pick up that Podhoretz was talking about liberal Jews. You know, people that were against war and human rights violations, and for decent health care and social justice. Why do they take liberal positions? BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT THE POSITIONS ARE IN THEIR COUNTRY'S BEST INTEREST. And they think neoconservative positions are AGAINST their country's interests.

So Podhoretz very clearly IS asking liberal American Jews to put the interests of Israel above the interests of the US. So if that isn't encouraging double loyalty, I don't know what is.

I dunno Winnie the Liar, it sure looks like a dual loyalty/betrayal type problem if you are going to vote against everything you believe about health care, human rights, social justice, economics, etc. in order to support a foreign country, which is what that idiot Podhoretz is urging liberal Jewish voters to do.

And the thing about the neocons and AIPAC is not simply that they are urging support for Israel in general; no, they are urging support for a particular political position within Israel, that of the Likud and the lovely Avigdor Lieberman. Criticism of them is portrayed as betrayal of Israel; criticize Peace Now, not so much.

The troofers are going to be out in force on this one. I expect 500+ letters by noon tomorrow.

I kinda hate to say this, but9/11 was basically your basic afternoon in Iraq or Afghanistan. I don't hear a lot of calls for more investigations there.

Maybe because they cojones, and understand that from time to time you get attacked. Don't have to get all weird about it, just fight back by living. Just sayin.

What really irks me about this, and makes me think there is quite a bit of Islamophobia underneath it, is that such a mountain is being made over a mole hill.

A couple of years back, during the "Reasonable Accommodation" hearings in Quebec, there was a major brouhaha over the thought of women in full Burqa, covering their faces, might be getting driver's licenses and other idea using photos with their faces covered. There was much furious editorializing and denunciations. Then somebody decided to dig out some, you know, actual facts. In Quebec, population of nearly 8 million, and about 150,000 practicing Muslims, they could find exactly two women who went fully veiled, and both of them had unveiled without demur for ID pictures.

The phenomena is so small in North America that everybody is getting their burqas in a not over nothing.

I've traveled in the Middle East a fair bit. The only place you see the full Abaya thing is Saudi, and in some of the more backward rural areas of Lebanon, Syria, & Jordan (and in Pakistan & Afghanistan, if you want to call them the Middle East). In fact, in urban centres, I would estimate even Hijab wearers don't make up a majority. The only places that I know of where the government forces women to cover are Saudi and Iran, both theocratic despotisms. That are both likely to implode in the next decade or so anyway, and solve their own problems.

Pray tell, what exactly is "Muslim culture?"

Is Indonesian "Muslim culture" the same as Indian "Muslim culture" the same as Chechen "Muslim culture" the same as Lebanese "Muslim culture" the same as Sudanese "Muslim culture" the same as Moroccan "Muslim culture" the same as American "Muslim culture?"

You are an idiot and a bigot.

How dare Wolf contaminate the purity of her argument by actually talking to Muslim women! How dare she try it on herself! How dare she contaminate the purity of her argument with actual facts and personal experience!

Outrageous!

I just want to know, what on earth does a talking head contribute to society that makes them worth "between $12 and $15 million a year." I don't care what kind of chromosome they have, it is simply obscene.

It's that darn proximity to Canada seeping through the border. You know, things like politeness and facts and general civility. Better call out the Minute Men and lock that border down before you end up with communist medicine and Canadian style death panels!

Am I insufficiently antisemitic to go on your special blame list?

Wow.

(By the way, when is WinSmith going to show up?)

Does the others here think that this is really such a low-frequency thing? "Once an abuser, always an abuser", "people never change", etc.?

Well, actually, yes. In 20+ years of social services, I have never once seen an abusive relationship heal, at least not for any length of time.

I have seen a few abusers go on to OTHER relationships that seemed not unhealthy. But no, I have never once seen an abuser get back together with a victim and have it work out over the long term.

Not. Even. Once.

Ever.