I agree that Holly Hunter's Grace Hanadarko is a fantastic character, but the religious aspects of the show are simply unbelievable. Grace is like the Job of atheists--she refuses to believe in God, no matter how many miracles He throws her way. This type of person doesn't exist in real life. Grace gets drunk one night, runs some poor guy over with her car, and then asks God to help her. God promptly sends an angel to her (in the flesh), who resurrects the dead guy and then tucks Grace into bed for the night. That's all in the first episode. Her guardian angel goes on to spend the series following her around and performing random miracles from time to time, and Grace STILL refuses to believe in God. Most of the atheists I know don't believe in God because they've never seen any convincing evidence of any sort of higher power. They aren't fanatical about it, and most of them will tell you that they'd be open to changing their minds if they ever saw something truly miraculous. I think that a winged angel who raises the dead would qualify as miraculous, even to the most ardent of atheists. And I can't for the life of me figure out why it isn't convincing to Grace.

I loved what Heather said about the tendancy of alcoholics to go on about their tortured lives prior to getting clean. I am an alcoholic and I gotta tell you, you nailed it right on the head.

Of course she is my favorite writer on Salon so maybe that isn't a surprise.

Thanks

i think it's easy to explain because religious people think atheists are like them. That is those who believe in god, think atheist believe in not-god the same way. So it makes sense to religious people to see someone consistently deny direct evidence of god. It's a good tactic to preach to religious people how they themselves feel about atheists.

What religious people don't understand is that atheists disbelieve in the god the same way they disbelieve that if you add too much salt to your food it will get too salty. There's no particular emotional investment in the "not-god" it is just the way the world seems to work.

To religious people, watching someone consistently deny god the way Peter denied Jesus makes sense. That's how they believe in god, and that's how they think atheists believe in the not-god.

The basic idea of the article was good. Talk about two shows that feature religious characters and concepts. Very good, very valuable. (I would have included Eli Stone, because its "prophet" talks a lot about the existence/nonexistence of God, but what the hey, it's a show a lot of people have seen. Better to talk about two obscure ones.)

But the framing story around the two blew the ballgame. Musing about how alcohol is God for many people? That kind of journalism belongs in a metropolitan free weekly newspaper. It's what the local cynical reviewer writes, justifying his saturnine outlook and alcoholism, and trying to sound as much like Harlan Ellison as he can, although he's nowhere near as smart or witty. Such articles are supported by the weekly's advertisers; gay dating services, massage parlors and 1-900-SlutNumber phone-sex lines. The perfect environment for incisive cultural critiques.

Havrilesky can do much better than this. She has done better than this. I hope she does better next week.

I don't think Grace's problem is that she doesn't believe in God, so much as she refuses to trust him. Her backstory is one nightmare after another piled on layer after layer. (Granted a necessity for a TV series, but in real life someone would have just gone around the bend.) But with all that misery, Grace is angry at God for letting it happen to her and others. She perhaps views him as an uncaring thug. She sees the miracles but perhaps wonders is this another trick. I get the sense she wants to believe there is a Power that cares but just can't commit herself. Like many of us, she is willing to take the responsibility for her actions, good and bad. However, maybe God should step up for his mistakes too.

Please love me.

Or give me a job.

Hey, I belong to the church of Gillian Welch, too.

Saving Grace presents a dilemma: I love, love Holly Hunter but I hate, hate stories about angels or God played by Morgan Freeman. What to do? Record Saving Grace and then fast forward through all the scenes with the angel. It really works; the angel stuff is just icky high-concept frosting on the great dessert that is Holly Hunter's character. Just scrape off the offensive frosting.

I think the show also nicely underplays the Native American angle in the Oklahoma setting. It's just an ordinary part of Hannadarko's world and family, not some romanticized exoticism.

...flying over us. We raise our glasses to STOLI BLAKBERI and roll our eyes upward.

Thank VOD,ka

p.s.

I like tomreedtoon. Keep doing what you do tom. Keep Heather honest.

She's looking terrific. Why not more movies for Holly? She was hilarious with Nick Cage in "Raising Arizona."

It's obvious both of these shows are a waste of any normal persons time! I am not into religious propaganda. It's like every other form of propaganda thinly veiled and grows tiresome quick!

A couple of years ago, there was a great TV show on called "Joan of Arcadia." It, too, was about God's influence and very well done.

I've not watched "The Cleaner" or "Saving Grace," but I hope these shows can live up to "Joan of Arcadia." I wish "Joan of Arcadia" could be reinstated. Great cast.

A "27% mortality rate"? A "27% mortality rate"?

It sounds like "The Cleaner" could do with a cross-over episode with "Dexter".

So adorable! So cute! And so distracting from the real points people make! I'd bet George Bush wishes he had YOU on staff.

Now for a real issue; there are some posters who are horribly upset at any mention of religion, in this column or the show. Given what's happened to religion in America in the last few decades, that's understandable.

And it's true that, in decades past, TV talked about God, religion and belief in pretty unspecific ways. Nondenominational, pleasant, not trying to offend anybody. Of course they did that by ignoring most non-Christian religions. Before about the 1960's Jews were rare on TV, devout Islamics almost invisible.

But when right-wing Christians started to make noise, the content started getting pretty specific. Nobody saw the believers in Seventh Heaven or Highway to Heaven as anything but standard-brand Protestants. And when any other faiths were shown, the shows seemed to have a kind of teeth-clenched tolerance. Any atheists were considered the "problem of the week" that the protagonists would solve.

So now, we have avowed atheists hating any mention of religion and stomping on it whenever it appears. Not jumping on religious hypocrisy whenever it appears, but just the appearance or mention of religion. Including articles about religion in TV shows.

They're within their rights to do so, of course, but I just wonder if they ever realized what a waste of time and energy it is. It's as wasted as the efforts of the religious zealots trying to force the atheists into becoming believers. Both those battles are hot and heavy fights for the participants, and keeps them from doing more productive things. Like, for instance, helping the poor and troubled, whether or not you care for their souls, or believe they have souls or not.