more propoganda that paints us as evil and the acts of others as just a defense against us.

You either believe the movie or you are against the Constitution and you are evil.

Another progressive message from the "don't call us unpatriotic" dems.

It makes me damned uncomfortable to think, as I walk down the street, I might be passing someone who thinks the way you do. I'd expect them to have tentacles coming out of their forehead but no, they'll just look like someone on the street. That's scary.

And yeah, torture doesn't work, even if you have the right person (you might have to torture everyone to make sure you get the terrorist with the 411). That's been proven long since. You get inaccurate information at best and solidify the determination of a brave victim never to tell you anything because you are clearly the monster he believes you to be.

The Greek democratic system didn't last very long, it was followed by centuries of autocracy, and only wealthy men could vote.

Thank them for the idea if you like, but the author is not wrong.

Mikes: The fact that you are so clueless that you think torture works and you readily admit your ignorance is amazing. Torture does not work, Israel has learned that, John McCain and other former POWs have argued that. Because it works for Jack Bauer doesn't mean it works in the real world. Actual intelligence and a White House that listened to the warning signs may have prevented 3,000 people from dying, torture would have done NOTHING!

"The way you prevent 'them' from doing horrible things to us and ours is by not doing horrible things to them in the first place, whether directly or through proxies like Israel or Pakistan."

What a painfully naïve statement. I do not discount the effects of US foreign policy in seriously inflaming the situation but to reduce the matter to us just leaving them alone is dangerously simplistic. Under your explanation are the violent Islamic expansions again virtually all bordering non-Muslims cultures throughout history to be seen as the result of provocation? And wasn't the first US-Muslim interaction in our history an attack by state-sponsored pirates on our commerical shipping in the Mediteranean?

A good question for the Salon crowd to consider is how can any religion who believes its god-given duty is to dominate humankind ever be sated?

ancient greece wasn't really democratic, by usually accepted standards(they had slaves, for one thing). The oldest continuously democratic state is probably iceland.

Oh please.. the U.S. is not the "oldest" democracy in the world. We have Ancient Greece to thank for democracy.

Of course I understand that.... but I don't see much(any) reviling of Islamists from America's left, just reviling Bush.

Oh, and by the way, I believe torture is necessary in today's world (to prevent terrorism). If we could have tortured someone into confessing the 9/11 plot before it happened, should we have? Think about the 3000+ American lives lost and answer that question.

I just got a little worked up when Andrew O'Hehir gets fighting mad about how the US treats the enemy, when our enemies BRUTALLY AND VISCIOUSLY CUT OFF OUR CITIZEN'S HEADS.

We are supposed to be a country governed by the rule of law. Ours is not supposed to be a country of an "eye for an eye." When we lower our standards, when we torture and kill behind closed doors, before determining guilt or innocence, we are no better than the radical terrorists who claim to kill in the name of God and religion.

If you are comparing what our government does in the name of freedom and security to what groups of thugs and terrorists do then you've pretty much already made our point for us.

Would you rather be a "suspected terrorist" in whatever unnamed prison we've set up to replace Abu Ghraib or an American captured by Islamic terrorists. Two to three years of torture followed by either possible release or death(if they just decide "forget" they have you in custody) OR ... 4-5 weeks of torture followed by near certain death. We'd all probably choose the U.S. prison experience and hope but the idea that there is any moment of pause when choosing between the two is what is so upsetting.

"I remember all the Nazis we took down into the basement and tortured during the Second World War, because they did, after all -- oh, wait a minute, we didn't. Back then, we were being run by decent men, not by hysterical, evil men like Bush and Cheney."

Actually do some reasearch on American treatment of German civilians and POWs during and after WWII and then come back with your mighty historical pronouncements. Especially look into the US handing over POWs to the Soviets. The paralells with those modern events which make Salonistas "shake with rage" should be glaringly obvious.

"But you still defend them and shame Bush??"

O.k., you've just revealed yourself as a true Republican.

Who's defending "them"? I wasn't. I was merely saying that two wrongs don't make a right; we shouldn't stoop to their level; etc. ad nauseam.

In "the oldest Democracy" we have a right to criticize our government without being accused of all sorts of vile stuff.

If you think my point is wrong, use your brain and tell me why. Make your argument. Don't just call me unpatriotic or whatever.

I'd like to note that beheadings didn't start happening in Irq until after news of Abu Ghraib broke. What happened to Nick Berg, roughly 3 weeks after the first photos were made public, was genuinely horrible. Nevertheless, the news delivered around the world was just the period to a sentence:

When the Abu Ghraib scandal first made news, many right-wing commentators here said that they shouldn't have revealed the photos, because they would only embolden the enemy, and result in retaliation. They were only half-right-- don't you think, as communities received their sons back, psychologically and physically scarred, bloodied and broken-- or dead-- that they knew? The pictures only served as confirmation.

The way you prevent "them" from doing horrible things to us and ours is by not doing horrible things to them in the first place, whether directly or through proxies like Israel or Pakistan.