Did the beheadings of Daniel Pearl or Paul Johnson Jr, or Nick Berg or Eugene Armstrong make you shake with rage?

The wrongs our government commit are our responsibility! Is this so difficult to grasp?

I fully expected a fair bit of disagreement and hostility, and as far as that goes I'd rather not simply hear a chorus of amens.

But why is it assumed that Alex Gibney or I or anyone else who is concerned about the United States' calamitous abandonment of constitutional principles and the rule of law somehow has a smoochy attitude toward wacko Islamic terrorists? I guess it's because when you're stuck with a bogus, losing argument you try to shift the terrain as much as possible. But it's pretty much the definition of a false dichotomy. The Cheney crowd got away with this rhetorical smudge for many years. Thankfully it's not quite as easy now.

I'm defining Islamists as people who are engaging in a revivalist movement whose goal is to impose Sharia as the only system of law for states. I'm also defining Islamists as the group who will use any means necessary (terror, suicide bombings, beheadings, suppressing women) to promote their ultra-conservative Islamic agenda (which is at odds with most Muslim thinking around the world). I define the leader of the Islamist movement as Osama binLaden.

On to jedimaster: "spouting RNC rhetoric"

-No. I am not a republican. They led us into a horribly misguided war in Iraq, and I'm not thrilled with what they've done domestically either. I'm an independant who will most likely vote for Barack Obama. I'm just bringing all of this up because Andrew O'Hehir was fighting mad about how the US has treated enemies and doesn't bring up that Islamists CUT OFF AMERICAN'S HEADS to acheive their goals. That set me off.

Why do you hate the troops?

Are you making an argument, or just scribbling RNC manifesto on the wall of your room?

The precise reason I enjoy our unparalleled freedoms is because people stood in the face of government sanctioned tyranny against the people. Something, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Republicans used to stand up for. US Sanctioned torture doesn't give me freedom and safety. It gives me the illusion of freedom and safety.

And Victoria, yeah, some folks got tortured during WWII. And I would like to know if our government, at its highest level, openly rejected the geneva convention and ordered troops to torture and coerce testimony on a grand scale. If you can present me with that evidence, I'll give you that point.

mikes pace, can you clarify what you mean by 'islamists?' do you mean all muslims? bad muslims? maybe if you can articulate this small matter you won't come off looking so idiotic.

I have no McMansion. I have no kids. I don't fear Islamists. I fear Americans who implicitly and explicitly condone America-bashing (despite enjoying it's UNPARALLELED liberties, opportunites, rights and freedoms) and don't speak out against Islamists who would LOVE to cut their head off for living in liberal America.

fyi - if you think bush is conservative, islamists are really really reaaally conservative. but you knew that, right?

I called it propoganda and that's what it is. Why are you so childish that you can't admit that?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be shown or talked about.

In that case I thank them for the idea then (thanks Grubert :). I never said it wasn't flawed or wouldn't be considered "democracy" by modern day standards - I was merely pointing out their assosciation with the idea of democracy. I was mainly counteracting Mike Paces argument that the U.S. was "the oldest democracy" simply because there's heaping historical fact (and almost common knowledge) that it isn't. I knew democracy existed in some form or the other long before the birth of the U.S.

I know James T. Kirk, and you sir, are no Tiberius.

The real Tiberius doesn't get all defensive and touchy when a little criticism comes his way. Real men can take it. Real men know how to admit flaws.

Your kind always over-reacts to real news about American military adventures and the havoc they wreak: "Oh, so we all bad and they all good?"

Childish petulance.

"I just got a little worked up when Andrew O'Hehir gets fighting mad about how the US treats the enemy, when our enemies BRUTALLY AND VISCIOUSLY(sic) CUT OFF OUR CITIZEN'S HEADS."

This creature named a several people who have been beheaded. The movie documents 36 people who have been murdered in our custody. Some of these people were completely innocent victims.

But we aren't supposed to be angry when people are being tortured and killed in our name because a completely different group of people are doing some bad things. So if the FBI tortures my innocent neighbor, I can't stick up for him because some mobster in Chicago is shooting people?

Total insanity. How can we stand up and demand that other countries, included those oh-so-evil "Islamicist" ones, follow the rules of civilization when we declare the rules don't apply, and go about breaking them on an industrial scale?

We can't. And we aren't. The world is not a better, safer, or more compassionate place since Bush and Cheney started brutalizing, torturing and killing those who might be our enemies. Life is getting nastier, more brutish and shorter all the time.

It's time to clean up our act and bring justice back to our cause. After we start treating our prisoners with justice and even compassion, we can start lecturing the rest of the world about how they're acting.

And if we are walking the walk, they might actually listen to us when we talk. Right now, they're laughing at us. Except for the ones who are picking up stones and knives and looking for revenge.

"but I don't see much(any) reviling of Islamists..( from the left) "

You must think the best way to solve a problem is to revile it.

Or torture somebody.

I bet your kids have a wonderful life.

How can you sleep at night with all those fears you have of big, bad bogeyman Islamists blowing up your McMansion?

Get a grip, dude. 19 nuts with box cutters don't an invasion make.