2 questions --

"If you advocate torturing Bush & Co. with or without a trial, don't you become just as bad as all the Right-Wing Fox pundits poo-pooing Abu Gharib?"

when did i advocate such a thing?

and are you disputing that detainees - who have not yet been tried - are being tortured?

Her/his sarcastic response to me: "You’re right, of course. So true. What a lousy human being Andrew is, that the torture of unconvicted, untried people that aren’t – well, him, fills him with rage. You tell him, Victoria L! That’s not empathy, Andrew, that’s not holding bullies up to the harsh judgment they so richly deserve: that’s you being a self-loathing class–act."

First of all rage is never a noble or constructive sentiment. We all feel but it should not be proudly paraded about as if it were a badge of honour to be so unnuanced in our reactions. Rage means you are seeing things in black and white.

"that’s not holding bullies up to the harsh judgment they so richly deserve"

So you laud O'Hehir's rage at the fate of "unconvicted, untried people" and then attack me for calling O'Hehir a hypocrite when he describes dumping naked "unconvicted, untried people" in the middle of a harsh desert. You deserve a special hypocrisy award, a-ignatius.

O'Hehir's fanatasy solution is short on "judgement" and long on the punishment "they so richly deserve". If you advocate torturing Bush & Co. with or without a trial, don't you become just as bad as all the Right-Wing Fox pundits poo-pooing Abu Gharib?

All he talks about are Mikes' comments on American deaths upon which I have said nothing.

"The logic that Andrew cannot be rage filled by our government's actions because Americans have been beheaded is the manifestation of insipid, logic-adverse minds"

Attacking me by baseless, false association, classy BobBob.

My comments were on O'Hehir advocating torture himself. That is a legitimate stab at hypocrisy. If that makes you uncomfortable because you share similar violent revenge fantasies about the Bush-Cheney beast of Salon yore or its Neo-Con Zionist master, then I suggest you look at how hate corrupts liberal values.

Why does he need to say whether he was shaking with rage at the murder of Americans? That makes no sense. He is reviewing a movie that documents US abuses of prisoners, many of whom are completely innocent. I think all Americans are horrified by the banality of evil that Islamic terrorists have shown, but does that evil not allow us to be disgusted and rage filled when our own government engages in acts that embarrass us across this world, make us less safe, and that have resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians and more than 3,300 American troops?

The logic that Andrew cannot be rage filled by our government's actions because Americans have been beheaded is the manifestation of insipid, logic-adverse minds

SAYS VICTORIA--

So let me get this straight O'Hehir is *so* filled with rage (which Andy pretends there is a "constructive" variant thereof) over the US "torture" of detainees that he openly anounces a violent fantasy to kidnap and essentially kill by leaving-for-dead those responsible. No wonder leftists hate Bush with such obsessive intensity because you see yourself reflected in your shared violent, totalitarian leanings. This is how a leftist becomes so distorted with rage that they betrayal liberalism and rational conduct. Really, Andy, did you think your violent revenge fantasy would impress us?

p.s. I also love throwing in the racial marker "white-baby naked". You're a hate-filled, self-loating class-act as always Andrew.

.....You’re right, of course. So true. What a lousy human being Andrew is, that the torture of unconvicted, untried people that aren’t – well, him, fills him with rage. You tell him, Victoria L! That’s not empathy, Andrew, that’s not holding bullies up to the harsh judgment they so richly deserve: that’s you being a self-loathing class–act.

Don't apologize to me - apologize to all the Americans who won that war. Because you are downplaying their accomplishments.

But it was the Soviets who won the war in Europe. They chewed up 200 divisions of the Wehrmact. When the Allies landed at Normandy they faced 80 divisions. Furthermore, Hitler was so obsessed with destroying the Communists that he sent the absolute cream of his various armed forces (especially the SS shock troops and Panzer Grenadiers) into Russia. The Allies faced few such elites.

Near the end of the war in the Pacific, Soviet paratroopers went through the Japanese Kanto Army (a battle-hardened army in China) like it wasn't even there. Had there been no atomic bombs, I'm quite sure they would have made short work of the portion of Japan they invaded.

Sorry.

Andrew never said that his outrage is exclusively reserved for those tortured by the U.S. government. Nor did he say that the beheadings of Americans is not cause for outrage. He is merely commenting on the topic of this particular movie. I feel equally outraged by the senseless torture and killing of ALL people, Americans or non-Americans. Can't we at least agree on that?

I belive the real point here is one we were versed in during kindergarden, two wrongs don't make a right. Our current policies toward radical Islam are a self furfilling prophesy. They strike us for being "devils", we torture them and become devils. Can anyone win that kind of war? "All men are created equal.." only counts when we agree? How many lives will be plundered before common sense prevails?

Maybe if the congress voted to remove the security detail from the exectutive branch, we might end up with a president that worked very, very hard, to ensure our security with out envoking war powers or abusing our reputation as a freedom loving country.

If the US incarcerates and tortures people to death - I don't care who they are or what they've done - then that is indefensible and shameful.

That is NOT to say Islamic terrorists beheading Americans is somehow right. It is vile and barbaric. And, no, America did not cause these atrocities but it surely made them more likely - why did these murderers dress their victims in orange jump suits before executing them?