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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
Of course I understand that.... but I don't see much(any) reviling of Islamists from America's left, just reviling Bush.
Oh, and by the way, I believe torture is necessary in today's world (to prevent terrorism). If we could have tortured someone into confessing the 9/11 plot before it happened, should we have? Think about the 3000+ American lives lost and answer that question.
I just got a little worked up when Andrew O'Hehir gets fighting mad about how the US treats the enemy, when our enemies BRUTALLY AND VISCIOUSLY CUT OFF OUR CITIZEN'S HEADS.
Oh please.. the U.S. is not the "oldest" democracy in the world. We have Ancient Greece to thank for democracy.
ancient greece wasn't really democratic, by usually accepted standards(they had slaves, for one thing). The oldest continuously democratic state is probably iceland.
"The way you prevent 'them' from doing horrible things to us and ours is by not doing horrible things to them in the first place, whether directly or through proxies like Israel or Pakistan."
What a painfully naïve statement. I do not discount the effects of US foreign policy in seriously inflaming the situation but to reduce the matter to us just leaving them alone is dangerously simplistic. Under your explanation are the violent Islamic expansions again virtually all bordering non-Muslims cultures throughout history to be seen as the result of provocation? And wasn't the first US-Muslim interaction in our history an attack by state-sponsored pirates on our commerical shipping in the Mediteranean?
A good question for the Salon crowd to consider is how can any religion who believes its god-given duty is to dominate humankind ever be sated?
Mikes: The fact that you are so clueless that you think torture works and you readily admit your ignorance is amazing. Torture does not work, Israel has learned that, John McCain and other former POWs have argued that. Because it works for Jack Bauer doesn't mean it works in the real world. Actual intelligence and a White House that listened to the warning signs may have prevented 3,000 people from dying, torture would have done NOTHING!
The Greek democratic system didn't last very long, it was followed by centuries of autocracy, and only wealthy men could vote.
Thank them for the idea if you like, but the author is not wrong.
It makes me damned uncomfortable to think, as I walk down the street, I might be passing someone who thinks the way you do. I'd expect them to have tentacles coming out of their forehead but no, they'll just look like someone on the street. That's scary.
And yeah, torture doesn't work, even if you have the right person (you might have to torture everyone to make sure you get the terrorist with the 411). That's been proven long since. You get inaccurate information at best and solidify the determination of a brave victim never to tell you anything because you are clearly the monster he believes you to be.
more propoganda that paints us as evil and the acts of others as just a defense against us.
You either believe the movie or you are against the Constitution and you are evil.
Another progressive message from the "don't call us unpatriotic" dems.
"but I don't see much(any) reviling of Islamists..( from the left) "
You must think the best way to solve a problem is to revile it.
Or torture somebody.
I bet your kids have a wonderful life.
How can you sleep at night with all those fears you have of big, bad bogeyman Islamists blowing up your McMansion?
Get a grip, dude. 19 nuts with box cutters don't an invasion make.
"I just got a little worked up when Andrew O'Hehir gets fighting mad about how the US treats the enemy, when our enemies BRUTALLY AND VISCIOUSLY(sic) CUT OFF OUR CITIZEN'S HEADS."
This creature named a several people who have been beheaded. The movie documents 36 people who have been murdered in our custody. Some of these people were completely innocent victims.
But we aren't supposed to be angry when people are being tortured and killed in our name because a completely different group of people are doing some bad things. So if the FBI tortures my innocent neighbor, I can't stick up for him because some mobster in Chicago is shooting people?
Total insanity. How can we stand up and demand that other countries, included those oh-so-evil "Islamicist" ones, follow the rules of civilization when we declare the rules don't apply, and go about breaking them on an industrial scale?
We can't. And we aren't. The world is not a better, safer, or more compassionate place since Bush and Cheney started brutalizing, torturing and killing those who might be our enemies. Life is getting nastier, more brutish and shorter all the time.
It's time to clean up our act and bring justice back to our cause. After we start treating our prisoners with justice and even compassion, we can start lecturing the rest of the world about how they're acting.
And if we are walking the walk, they might actually listen to us when we talk. Right now, they're laughing at us. Except for the ones who are picking up stones and knives and looking for revenge.
I know James T. Kirk, and you sir, are no Tiberius.
The real Tiberius doesn't get all defensive and touchy when a little criticism comes his way. Real men can take it. Real men know how to admit flaws.
Your kind always over-reacts to real news about American military adventures and the havoc they wreak: "Oh, so we all bad and they all good?"
Childish petulance.
In that case I thank them for the idea then (thanks Grubert :). I never said it wasn't flawed or wouldn't be considered "democracy" by modern day standards - I was merely pointing out their assosciation with the idea of democracy. I was mainly counteracting Mike Paces argument that the U.S. was "the oldest democracy" simply because there's heaping historical fact (and almost common knowledge) that it isn't. I knew democracy existed in some form or the other long before the birth of the U.S.
Much of the initial coverage about Fort Hood turned out to be wrong. Is there anything wrong with that?
The accountability imposed by another country for the CIA's kidnapping and torture reveals much about our own.
Fox News' morning show plays to type, talking about whether Muslims in the Army should face "special debriefings"
The survivor and author is upset about comparisons some on the right are making to genocide
Once seen as a lunatic fringe, reactionary anti-women groups are courting respectability
Salon headlines in your mailbox
