This is a good discussion, though a little off topic from the original post..

I wanted to respond to Slackie on the subject of Israel. You said that Israel is more of a democracy that the USA. I disagree. Although they have a functioning parliment, In my opinion they operate more like a theocracy run by a bunch of clerics, corruption and racism run rampant, and their demeanor is elitist, militaristic and aggressive. Every time I hear about Israei (read: american) missiles killing palistinian kids it makes me sick.

The neighborhood has something to do with some aspects of what I mention above, but as our ally, who we support with more money (3 billion a year) than we give any other country (except, of course, Iraq, now) we need to hold them to a higher standard. And we need a more evenhanded approch in the region...I basically agree with you when you say we should be supporting democracy in the region - Turkey and Egypt especially right now. And why we have this new deal where we give the Saudis (how many of them were involved with 911 vs. how many Iraqs?) AND Israel additional $ and weapons is only going to exacerbate tensions.

Some other poster was writing about how its the poor muslims that are the source of terrorists - Not true. Look at the recent London scare - It was organized by a bunch of doctors.

Per the bumper sticker - We are making enemies faster than we can kill them.

...And I'll admit that I don't read Haaretz, and what I know about internal politcs in Israel cames from NPR and the BBC. Still, I can't quite see how the citizens of Israel have this "Diversity of opinion" that you say is greater than that here - What comes most immediately to mind is the recent push for gay rights there that was pretty much bulldozed by a vocal orthodox minority. And as the arab population of Israel heads towards the 50% mark (expected in the next 10-20 years, I think) Israel is grappling with the same Issues that we have over the last 30 years. And from what I have seen, this is exposing just how isolated and monolithic Israel has been, adn how that is changing.

There seems to be no shortage of Press on diverse issues here...In my mind, I guess I separate the media from political discourse. I do concur that here, largely because of republican wedge issues, debate has become framed and stilted.

Experience colors everything, and for me, my mothers side is jewish and I have an Israeli uncle (by marriage) who fought in the 6 day war and he is one close-minded racist SOB, who, when I look at him, I just want to ask "Didn't you learn anything from the holocaust?"

That's my little rant.

That I was referring to in my earlier post.

Let's cool tensions by giving everyone more weapons! Yay!

But what concerns me is that Obama has neither the experience nor the critical eye, or skepticism, to really represent our interests.

Sometimes, and I know this may seem superficial, I see in him the same "who, me?" dazed look that I see in Bush. It does not inspire confidence.

Didn't see that coming.

but the question is, will he die for my sins?

Bin Laden is a paper tiger, and I think Obama is doing more than a little posturing (Though, to be fair, who isn't) to seem "Tough on Terror", and compete with HRC.

The reality is that there are probably much greater dangers than some nominal figurehead holed up is a remote valley in Pakistan. I'll bet some of those dangers are already right here in the USA.

Right in the White House, for example

but no matter where you read about what is really going on, you probably still wouldn't believe it.

...A bunch of Saudis just hijacked some planes and ran them into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center"

"Well, it looks like we will have to lift all our sanctions on Iraq"

"But Mr. President, why don't we just blame the whole hijacking thing on Sadaam, and invade Iraq? We won't need a plan - Everything will just fall into place like dominos"

"Yes, and their pizza IS mighty tasty"

Then is this where we are supposed to be?

I don't know know if the truth even comes into it. So much of what is said is conjecture, what if scenarios, word parsing, restatements, and such, so that it is impossible to really say what the truth is.

We could have installed him...again.

There was plenty of foreign interference in the early days of America. The French and Indian war, the war of 1812...and remember the Alamo? We were getting it from all sides

Also - The Marshall plan was well underway toward rebuilding Europe in less time than we have been in Iraq. And the Marshall plan dealt with a larger, more ethnically diverse population, many countries of which were just coming out of the middle ages, relative to their neighbors...in Iraq, we have destroyed the infrastructure, removed the government, divided the population...Progress, if there can be said to be any, would only take us toward the place where we should have been 5 years ago.

Follow the money

From the beginning, this war has been about massive handouts to corporations, either via tax cuts or no-bid contracts. Remember right at the beginning when all that money went to KBR and Halliburton because, we were told, that they were the only ones who could perform. Bull.

Plus, war is good for the economy. If all that war money was not being pumped into the economy (much of it "trickle down"), the real impact of the Bush economic policy would be more truly felt.