It is silly to just say outright that the sexism was not decisive. However, given the lack of evidence that sexism WAS decisive, I don't see a good reason to go there.

I have said similar things about Obama supporters claiming voter racism was the only real reason the so-called white working class voters don't prefer him. There are so many other possibilities, I don't see a good reason to go there either.

Without understanding voter psychology on a mass scale, we cannot understand how they voted. We can critique various kinds of spin, and that's pretty much it.

I am surprised that you ask "Why have Obama's black supporters not be[en] criticized for giving him an overwhelming advantage?" Because that exact criticism has happened so many times here that it would be impossible to count them. There is a very long list of posters I've stopped reading because they were constantly harping on this EXACT thing. I'm surprised you missed it.

I am curious about this, though: "I find that sexual relationships women have with men has more to do with the relationships we have with our parents then the clothes we wear."

In this case, the clothes are an expression of these girls' relationship with their parents. Any thoughts on what kind of message you might be giving your little girl by buying her a padded bra at age 6? Just curious. Wouldn't do it myself (for one thing, they don't have any Bratz wear at my local thrift store...), and can't imagine who would. But apparently, someone does.

And I have a sadly similar experience - my mother trying to relive her adolescence, which was destroyed by repressive and borderline psychotic Fundie parenting - by trying to get me to wear short shorts and miniskirts. Of course, the repressive and borderline psychotic Fundie parenting lurked around the edges at the same time. Needless to say, I find that my torn-up jeans and baggy t-shirts cut the Gordian knot quite nicely! But as far as sexuality itself? Boy, was I confused for a while.

"It doesn't mean it cost her the campaign, but it is an important observation about the status of women in our culture and should lead to intelligent discussion, not politically based accusations."

I could not agree with you more, and I said as much last time this came up. I thought "nothing but misogynists" was a little over the top, though. The trouble is not that people are "nothing but misogynists," but that they do not have the self-awareness to at least ATTEMPT to be civil. Calling them "nothing but misogynists" sets up a black-and-white ethic and blames the sinner instead of the sin. I'm guilty of plenty of racist, sexist and classist thoughts that I am not proud of; however, I know better than to let them come out of my mouth or even affect my behavior. So I agree with her and am glad she is addressing this, but at the same time I see classifying certain people as Bad Guys to be less helpful than classifying certain behavior as uncivil.

Sorry, but people do and say hateful things, but I don't know of any monomaniacal misogynists.

I also am put off by the sexist language used against a woman I used to respect, but that language was not something that would end a campaign. It was just revolting, not, as bearpaw1 said, decisive.

Where did anyone say fun and pleasure are virtues?

I don't know whom you think you are speaking to when you say "you" and "your," but your tone and choice of words indicate to me that you are grossly overgeneralizing.

The fact that you find sex boring is of little interest to anyone, and certainly has nothing to do with this conversation.

I support Obama, but if she were going to drop out, she should have done it a while ago, as soon as the math became insurmountable. Nothing new has happened here, so why drop out now? And I'm glad she has stopped eating her own and turned to McCain. I've got no beef with her staying in the race.

We are on the same side. I am trying to ask you to be more polite because you make other Obama supporters look bad by living out the stereotype.

She is just trying to not come off as a dour schoolmarm. There is nothing wrong with fun or pleasure, and sometimes you end up buying things in order to have them. A Salon subscription, for example.

Anyway, I know what you are trying to say, but the kneejerk reaction I have is, "What do you have against pleasure?" Feminism has been much more often accused of being a New Puritanism than of being too consumerist. I am not into the whole culture of feminine "deserving" (Calgon, take me away!), but I also don't think that culture is particularly feminist. It is apolitical.