BTW, nuclear generated electricity will fill in most our power needs. I live downwind from the Idaho National Laboratory, once know as NRTS, the National Reactor Testing Station. There are over 50 decommissioned reactors 40 miles west of my house. EBR1, the first reactor in the world to generate electricity on the grid is there. It is a National Historic Site, visit it. 26 engineers and technicians built it in 18 months from concept to powering a local town. The opposition and lies of the coal and oil producers, who financed many of the so-called environmental groups, has prevented us from having lots of nukes. However, we could easily build all the reactors we need at the rate of one a week, if that phony opposition ended.

Combined with wind power that will do the job. We'll just have to get along with electric cars (or plug-in hybrids).

I'm much more concerned with the advent of the next ice age, which will occur as soon as we stop burning fossil fuel 200 or so years from now. Global warming from fossil fuel burning has so far prevented that, but all that fuel will soon be gone. The only thing that will save civilization if lots of nukes. But I think that our stupidity is on a par with the Romans of the 6th century who could not fix the aqueducts when the Germans cut them. Out of a million inhabitants there were no decent engineers or technicians. Or worse the misguided environmentalists of the era required an environmental impact statement before the repairs could be done. Of course they were financed by the German tribes who cut the aqueducts.

Why is it that when doctors go on strike (Canada and Israel, for example) that the death rate declines precipitously? The Docs did not withhold acute and emergency car, only non-critical care. The second largest cause of death in the US is unneeded or inappropriate medical care. Taking prescription drugs or getting operated on is dangerous, especially when natural solutions are readily available. Our health care crisis is because of the stupidity of the average American. We see spending money (especially other peoples)on health care as a positive good. We see it in most of our acquaintances. They are almost gleeful when a Doc prescribes an expensive treatment for them.

All any of us need is a catastrophic insurance plan to prevent financial disaster in case of an acute illness. One of the major reasons there is so much wailing about uninsured children is because children in general are healthy and their insurance premiums would subsidize the middle-aged and elderly sickies, most of whose medical problems are self-inflicted.

I read recently of a major study that showed that Vitamin D is almost a magic pill that prevents cancer. Few Docs will even mention that to their patients, and most patients will not do the simple research where they would find that. So they will continue to push sunblock so that we can all get lots of internal cancers that will enrich the medical system.

A socialized system of medical care will still be controlled by special interests, who are threatened by anything that won't make money for them. I shudder to think of my daughter being punished for child abuse because her children have a tan. But that is what we will get in a single payer system.

Countries that practice single-payer socialized medicine successfully usually have smaller more homogeneous populations. France and Germany, which have a somewhat socialized system, also allow private insurance. Canada, with it's small population, can run a single payer system effectively. The US has a large and corrupt population. Screwing the system is endemic to us. Although Medicare has very low administrative costs, it is subject to extensive fraud. Private insurance has high administrative costs, but little fraud.

Hasn't any of the socialist readers of Salon noticed what Bush and his corporate allies have done to the government? He is not paticularly exceptional. In our large and diverse country chicanery is the norm, and always will be. After all, Part D of Medicare is socialized medicine US style. It is fraud on a massive scale.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodios? You talked a lot about severe punishments. Who will mete out those punishments? The government that is owned by those Evil Corporate Interests? Who will put up the campaign money to elect the "honest" politicians who bring in that socialist paradise that will take care of its citizens? Bush is typical, if not less evil than what is coming down the pike.

Yes, Sweden and Norway (an oil kingdom) have nice socialist systems, but they are not in the same league as the US in population or diversity, or corruption.

The secret of good health is careful avoidance of the medical system, except in cases of acute and life-threatening sickness. The system is actually pretty good at taking care of those problems. I see my job as to know more than any Doc about any chronic problems I might have. That is pretty easy, since the Doc has to know about a lot of things, and I only have to know one or two things. The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog only knows one thing, but he knows it very well. You are responsible for your own health, the Doc is only a hired technician who you have to watch very carefully so he doesn't make you sicker or dead.