the ban is not on the size, but on whether they are visible or not.

So a small cross or david star on a chain is ok because it can be tucked under a shirt in the classroom. The same sign pinned on a lapel is not. Similarly, muslim girls can have scarfs, but they must uncover their hairs in the classroom.

Note this apply only for public schools, and there is no such thing in the private sector. There was a boom in the catholic private schools, because there is not many muslim ones, and they accepted muslim students. By law the cursus is exactly the same, and religious teaching must be optional. A private school under contract is not free of cost unlike a public one but can be quite cheap (typically a few tens or hundred euros a trimester), because it is partly funded by the state.

What an interesting discussion this cartoon generated.

Thanks for the info on "laïc," Luc. I read recently that the ban on scarves and other religious clothing in schools didn't ban crucifixes outright, but only oversized ones. So there IS an unequal application of the ban -- it'd be more consistent to ban tiny crosses, too.

But even though I'm anti-religion, that thought makes me itchy. I prefer to live in a society where anyone can express themselves however they want. I wonder where that is?

What many people fail to understand is that France as a nation is not merely secular but a laïc one.

From first article of the constitution : "La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Elle assure l’égalité devant la loi de tous les citoyens sans distinction d’origine, de race ou de religion. Elle respecte toutes les croyances."

Keywords here are laïque and indivisible.

What that means is that although all faiths are recognized and even helped (once built, maintenance of churches, synagogues, mosquees is done by the state or provinces), those faiths are denied any right to intervene in state matters. Religion is considered a private thing, and nobody nor creed has any right to impose his morale or ethic above others. The rule of the law derives from a republican morale and ethic which is the consensus thinking of the population. This republican morale is the difference between being secular and laïc.

Of course it is mostly influenced by the christian roots of the country, but there is some rather striking divergences.

And that is exactly why burqas rub the nation the wrong way. It is an attempt to impose someone else ethic and morale on us, and also to place devout muslim women apart from the others.

There is no room in France for the canadian concept of "Reasonable accommodation", if you want to live here you have to accept the nation ethos. I'm personally against a ban but understand that burqas are a real problem.

when in fact the issue should be France's right to ban them. I will not even cast my opinion on burqas, but I do think that the politically correct people defending them are the same ones that criticize evangelical fundamentalist groups (cults really) like the Quiverfull, who they say "force" their women into a life of child-bearing and subserviency to men. Anyhow, as I am against any form of religion and consider both burqa-wearing women and Quiverfull multi-baby-bearing women to be extremes, I think France SHOULD outlaw the burqa. First and foremost I believe that if you decide to leave your country and emigrate to a new one, then you should respect the customs of that country and adapt to its culture. I am from Honduras and am going to college here in the States, so no, I am not some white, privileged male saying this. Secondly, I have always admired France for being ultra-secular and not caring whether tehir politicians had affairs, and a country where feminism has always been respected. Now, with the influx of Muslims (some extreme, some not), the country's secularism is being challenged by those touting tolerance for different cultures. If you want to wear the burqa, fine with me. Just do not expect to wear it in a country that is NOT muslim. Please people understand. It is not about racism or not tolerating people's religion.

Moslem fundies insist that women must wear the burqua. French libertarians insist that women be forbidden to wear the burqua.

What's the difference? In neither case, do women have any say.

"Its an Insult to all Men

The entire Muslim modesty ethic is about the inability of men to control their sexual impulses. The theory is that if a man gets so much as a glimps of the skin or hair of a woman, he will be unable to control his desires and will sin as a result. As a man I take this as a severe insult and deeply resent the thought that I am some kind of out of control rapist just because I am male. There is less in this ethic about the faithfulness of the woman than her supposed duty to protect herself from men and all men from themselves. The wearing of the burqa is uncivilized behavior and I completely understand and support the French impulse to oppose it."

I totally agree with you. The burka is sexist toward men, because it sais that men are animals. It's also sexist toward women. I never heard Muslims (or defender of scarves and burka's) argue that women might have impure thoughts about their men, and that the men because of that, should cover them selfs up or behave. That is because the Islam is patriarchal- and the opinion or feelings of women are not relevant. Just not relevant.

Another problem with the burka is it exaggerates the madonna-whore idea that is part of patriarchal societies. If their are some women in the public sphere that wear burkas, they are the madonna's (not the popstar, the Mary with baby Jesus). That means the other women in the public sphere are whore's. In a lot of patriarchal cultures, men and women are raised to think that the value of a women is her madonna-ness, and whores are not valued as people. If this happens in my neighborhood, than what is my position. I am a woman who is free, who doesn't want kids, who is not married, who is not in the company of brothers or dads...

I am a lefty form the Netherlands and we have the same discussion in our county. I think everybody should have the freedom to believe whatever they want. But I am also very proud of the freedom women and gays have in our society. And I don't like Dutch or American 'progressives' defending idea's and cultures that we have fought against for thirty years. You can tolerate burka's, but i don't understand how you can defend it. It is opposition of women and gay-righs.