These two statements of yours have mutually exclusive underpinnings.

“If you don't think the people ought to govern their own lives, then WHO DO YOU THINK SHOULD?”

“The liberal idea is that we have a right to organize our own lives through our own government.”

People should govern their own lives, what they cannot legitimately do is govern the lives of others.

Legitimate government exists to secure your rights, so that if your neighbor is stronger than you are there is someone to defend your rights against your neighbor’s encroachment.

What’s happened is that people, under the guise of organizing their own lives through government, have used government of all manner of evil. Yes, Nazism and Communism considered themselves liberal in the manner as you described.

Is all manner of Liberal activity evil? Of course not, but that doesn’t mean that it is legitimate either.

The simple question is this, if 90% of the public feel a certain way, about a non harmful activity, do they have the right to enforce their views upon the remaining 10%?

Your definition says yes then can, and that is illegitimate.

Though I see how. I wasn't as clear as I could be.

You read "You've never seen me defend Israeli ethnic cleansing or torture, it simply has never happened." As saying that ethnic cleansing or torture never happened. That's not what, I'm saying. The "it simply has never happened" modifies "You've never seen me defend Israeli ethnic cleansing or torture" as in you've never seen me defend it because it (me defending ethnic cleansing) has never happened.

"If by that you didn't mean by that Israeli ethnic cleansing "simply has never happened" then what did you mean? Did you mean instead that although Zionists commited ethic cleansing that you have never defended it?"

I simply mean I never defend Israeli ethnic cleansing, so nobody could have seen me do it.

I'll admit, especially on a message board I can see how you would reach your conclusion, no apology is necessary.

"I love how Israeli's illegally occupy the Shebaa Farms, fly their jets over Lebanon, detain Lebanese fishermen for years without charges and then talk about how they were attacked with no provocation."

How exactly is it Lebanon's business that Israel occupies the Shebba farms? It was never part of Lebanon, it was part of Syria.

Now, why should the person's profession of being a fisherman matter? You are trying to make it out as if some poor simple fisherman was arrested while catching bass, when in fact the person crossed the border via speed boat, killed a number of police officers, then captured two civilans, executed the father, then bashed the four year old girls head in.

It's pointless that the murderer was once a fisherman.

"The locals knew that the 10-story apartment building had been the office, and possibly the residence, of Sheik Tawouk, the Hezbollah commander for the south, so they had moved their families out at the start of the war."

So, he forces his way into a civilian building after being refused to rent the space, yet someone Hezbollah military doesn't stay in civilian areas.

How do you reconcile this? There are mutually exclusive.

"Democratic voters who put him in power wish he wouldn't."

This narrow minded attitude is why Democrats keep shooting themselves in the foot.

The people of Connecticut elected Lieberman to the Senate, all Democrats did was nominate Lieberman as their party representative for the election.

Salon has run article after article taking about Lieberman’s close loss in a primary election. Rarely does a day pass where something isn’t written about Lieberman, often with unnecessary vitriol. Yet, what has been written about Tom Delay’s cowardly decision to abandon his race? Nothing has been written, because it appears there isn’t room left after all the space has been occupied by Lieberman bashing.

The race to control the Senate is going to be exceedingly close, we Democrats will be lucky to have a 51-49 vote lead, and a tie, with Senate control being determined by Cheny is a real possibility.

At this momentous moment, where does the Democratic party decide to spend its energy, by bashing a Democratic Senator. You may disagree with his position on the war, you may disagree with his position on Alito, you may personally hate the man despite the fact he votes with the Democratic position over 90% of the time, but not once in 18 years has he voted for the Republican leadership in the Senate.

The fact of the matter is that Connecticut is 44% Independent, and a large number of Republicans support Lieberman as well. It’s very likely that Lieberman will win in the fall, and continuing to state that he is not a Democrat doesn’t incline him to vote for our leadership.

The left wing has taken a 100% safe vote for Democratic Party leadership and turned it into a wildcard, when the future of the Country depends on every single vote.

This current course of left wing Democrats are going to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.