I am wondering if there has been any study as to the environmental costs of large scale soy farming. I try to eat as much healthy, non-processed food as possible. I buy some organics when the cost-benefit strikes me as worth it (milk, yes; apples, no). I eat meat that I either killed myself or purchased on a local farm, had butchered and packed in my freezer.

But I am always horrified in the organics section of my supermarket. It all seems so processed and while I am impressed that they canmake soy into so many things, I also wonder what they hell they have to do to it to make it so.

I always get the feeling that somehow we'll find out that all these seeming hippy brands of organic almond butter or cruelty free veggie pops are actually owned and manufactured by shell corporations belonging to ADM or ConAgra. It just strikes me as so much marketing.

I'd rather buy the ingredients and make something myself even if it's just a porkchop, steamed broccoli and a microwaved potato.

I notice that in American society, city-dwellers who have never seen a cow or chicken often become vegetarians, while farmers almost never do. Ironically it seems that the better you get to know certain animals, the more you want to eat them.

Ever met a chicken? God made chickens evil so people would know it's okay to eat them.

I haven't read the book, but I've read a couple of reviews, and they consistently repeat the quote from Genesis, in reference to plants, that "to you it shall be for meat." This is an archaic usage from the King James version of the Bible, published in 1611. It is a more general sense of the word "meat" which really just means "food".

Compare these quotes in the Oxford English Dictionary: "These kindes of lillies are neither used in meate nor medicine" (1578); "the horses could not travel all day without rest or meat" (1775); "sending out women and children, after a hard day's work, to collect meat for the cattle" (1794); "Meat is then set down to them on a flat plate, consisting of crumbled bread and oatmeal" (1844).

In other words, Genesis 1:29 says nothing about eating flesh (which is the word that would have been used). More recent translations refer to "food": . The fact that the reviewers don't understand this suggests that Stuart didn't either, or didn't mention it. Either way, it doesn't reflect well on his intellectual competence or honesty.

Humans have every right to kill and eat animals.

In spite of what the PETArds think.

That includes the right to cage veal, battery raised chickens, industrial pork and FOIE GRAS.

PETArds beware. If I can't get meat from farm animals, well YOU are made of meat. So are the people you love.

And I WILL get meat from somewhere.

I laughed out loud after reading your post. And I'm still laughing! You are so right. The chickens never bothered me, but I was terrified of the pigs, especially the sows. Pigs are intelligent animals, but a nursing sow is a dangerous creature. Pigs are omnivores - they will literally eat anything, and more than one body has been dumped in the pig pen and never seen again.

Buffalonian, you are soooo right! I try to avoid most processed foods (not all - I'm not an ascetic), but I have been quite wary of some of the products now being sold as organic by some of the big agra conglomerates. DON'T buy Horizon milk. It's too complicated to go into here, but they found loopholes in the law that allow them to violate organic restrictions. We buy organic fat-free milk and eggs, but we had to do some checking to find products that were truly organic.

Do some web checking. I can't think of the sites off the top of my head, but they are easy enough to find. Your ID is Buffalonian. If you still live near Buffalo, there should be some good organic dairy and meat farms with good stuff. We too try to stick with basic unprocessed foods. We enjoy our meat and butter - just not in huge quantities and not very often.

Have you tried bison? Dig around your state and see if there are any organic farms. You might be able to purchase a side of beef and stick it in the freezer. Also, make friends with a hunter. I took my sweetie down to my family's farm and got a few deer. They were processed by a local guy. Lean and delicious.

Does anyone else find it hilarious that half of the posts from vegetarians are "I never try to tell anyone what to eat!!" and the other half are "You all should change how you eat!!"

I'm sorry for the people who feel put-upon by meat-eaters' reactions to their choices. It's a shame. But when the only vegetarians we meet are the ones who are telling us that we have to stop eating beef because it hurts the planet's soul, can you blame us for expecting you to be the same way?

Seriously, folks, please, stop it. Your evangelism is no better than anyone else's evangelism. Your choices work for you and make you feel like a better person. That's lovely. If I wanted to make those choices, I would have made them already.

just a couple of remarks

- Yes, I am a vegetarian. No that doesn't mean I want to get into a debate with you every time that fact becomes apparent. You will never convince me that my choice of diet is a vacuous one or that my reasons for this choice are poor. Trust me, I've already heard all of your crappy arguments, as well as some of the better ones. If, however, you would like to have an intelligent, civilized conversation regarding this matter then I'd be happy to such a discussion with you.

- Furthermore, you'll find that most vegetarians are like me. We don't broadcast our dietary preferences. Usually we think we have good reasons (and yes, they can vary) for our decisions, but most of us ACTUALLY don't claim to be morally superior or food snobs. Nor do we go around trying to convince you all of the time that you are in the wrong. We usually don't bring this up, but yes, if you provoke a debate we will defend our beliefs - how can we be in the wrong for doing so?

- About an omni-vore diet being 'natural'. Haven't we learned by now that because something purports to be natural says absolutely NOTHING about whether it is a moral practice? NATURAL DOES NOT EQUAL MORAL, UNNATURAL DOES NOT EQUAL IMMORAL. Here are some things that are 'unnatural' - contraception, modern medicine, homosexuality - are those things ipso facto immoral? Likewise for attempting to equate natural with moral.

- Yes other animals eat other animals - but since we take ourselves to be unique in that we are rational animals and can make choices based on considerations other than our survival, you would think we'd want to say a little more than 'other animals do it' to defend out meat consumption.

- We may have teeth and other adaptations for eating meat. So what? Those adaptations evolved at a time when it was advantageous for us to have them; that doesn't mean that we MUST continue to use those features. We are not hunter-gatherers anymore. We go to the grocery store. We (most of us, here) have plenty of food from all kinds of sources available to us. Vegetarians can have just as healthy, if not healthier, diets as omnivores. We're not malnourished and wasting away, we don't just eat lettuce.

Relatedly, vegetarianism is put into context. That is, given the food sources and access we have NOW, a vegetarian diet is not that onerous to follow. If these foods are not available, then of course one is permitted to eat what they need to in order to survive (thus, we don't look upon with scorn past populations that ate meat because that was what was available to them).

So, let's try and have an intelligent discussion about the different well-defended reasons for and against vegetarianism, shall we?