While I don't agree with everything he says, he is IMO quite correct about there being a double standard on this forum, and in American society generally, about how candid women can be in their opinions about men versus the other way around. Can you imagine how outraged some feminists would get about a show like "Sex in the City" if it had four horny guys instead of women? How about a T-shirt saying "Girls are stupid -- throw rocks at them"?

I too am looking forward to reading Norah Vincent's book. Kudos to her and other women who are able to support women's rights without dissing men. While the fundamental goals of feminism are worthy, a lot of its proponents are in dire need of a reality check these days.

-K-

>>Can you imagine how outraged some feminists would get about a show like "Sex in the City" if it had four horny guys instead of women?>>

duh, ever seen any Rat Pack movie? 4 horney guys chasing women. How about 4 Kings, on TV now? 4 horney guys. It's a bad tV show, whereas Sex and the City was clever, but all the same, its a show about 4 horney guys. Big wup, it's TV.

Your pussy glows in the DARK !!

Your penis glows in the DARK !!!

Well then, lets make like two ships that dock in the night!!

You two are soooooooooo outre.

I'm in the middle of this book, and enjoying it, but something is bothering me:

Vincent mentions in passing how women walking down a city street and getting viewed as a sexual being, including the construction workers' comments. I'm a woman, and that kind of thing has happened to me, but not nearly as much as Vincent and some previous letter-writers indicate.

And for every time it's happened, there's been a time when a male passerby has been a Good Samaritan - helping with a flat tire or holding open a door. Most of the time, though, I get the vibe of being just another person in line at the gas station, or wherever.

I wouldn't have brought this up if some previous letter-writers hadn't been so quick to label men as potential rapists. Yes, rape is horrible and it shouldn't happen (do I really need to say that?) but it's not omnipresent. We shouldn't act like it is.

I want to thank Mr. O'Hehir for his intriguing article.

I'm not certain that I'll ever read this book, however. I think it is a wonderful idea for a book - and I believe that the same experiment, but reversed, would be equally intriguing - but it does not appear, judging from Mr. O'Hehir's article, as if Ms. Vincent approached her project in a way that would have maximized her efforts.

I should state first that gender politics and philosophies of gender roles have always been wasted on me. They always appear overly academic, with no real correlation to the real world, and the real ways in which people interact. They tend to be overly hung up on the superficialities of language, and intentionally refuse to delve deeper; they largely appear to start with a conclusion, and then amass evidence in support. If I am properly reading between the lines of Mr. O'Hehir's article, it appears that Ms. Vincent, however earnest her attempts were, may have erred too far in that direction to keep my interest. I think a great book can still be written about this subject, but it needs to be approached more like "Black Like Me" - the group being "investigated" must be viewed sympathetically from the start, but also with a certain detachment when actually conducting the experiment. If the narrator is unsympathetic, what's the point? Insults can be dispensed from a distance. And if she is unable to detach her own life from her observations, of what value are they? It becomes difficult to believe that the narrator is discovering something new about the world rather than merely obliquely examining her own life.

I was touched, however, by the sections of the article dealing with "Ned's" experience at the bowling league. He hit the nail on the head regarding male-male relationships, and I'm happy that the narrator was able to experience it. I've always felt that women missed out on this aspect of life, have always been puzzled as to why, and felt sorry that it seems to be so common.

There are plenty of exceptions, but straight-female relationships generally appear to have a venomous aspect entirely lacking from male relationships. I can't think of a single female friend of mine that has not actually discarded (or been discarded by) long-term friends, and for reasons that made little sense to me. A female friend from high school recently stopped communicating entirely with three women she had regularly went out with for years; she told me it was because the leader of the group always had to pick the bar or restaurant they went to, refused to allow anyone else a say, and that the other two women always went along. Male friends rarely act like that, and if they did, we would most likely accept it as a quirk, and just play along. I can't picture getting angry over it, you know? Female friend "break-ups" seem to occur much more than is warranted by events.

This virtually never happens with men. Modern feminism has completely missed reality in its emphasis on "competition" among men. It exists, certainly; can be overly vicious on occasion, and could definitely be toned down to the benefit of all. But that version of competition tends to be limited to work and business matters, and is generally entirely missing from male friendships. Competitions among male friends end with the competition itself, whether it is sports, or cards, or hunting, or whatever. Jealousy (or at least the level of jealousy I've seen between women) is practically non-existent. I'm not a particularly outgoing dude, but I still have a dozen close male friends that I'm fully confident will remain my friends for life, and that's a wonderful thing. They are there for me if I need them (yes, men tend to be close-mouthed about emotional issues with each other, but frankly, we generally don't have that many emotional issues to talk about. When we do, as Mr. O'Hehir correctly observed, our friends are more than willing to lend a sympathetic ear, to reciprocate from their own experiences, and to help out as necessary and where possible). But generally, our time spent together is free of tension and jealousy, and dedicated to simply enjoying each others company.

I'm glad to see that Ms. Vincent picked up on that; I also have never understood the hostility women seem to have for each other when meeting for the first time. I recently brought a new girlfriend out with a group of friends from work, and the hostility and exclusion she experienced from some of my female friends was dramatic, and entirely unexpected by me. I was very angry with my friends until my girlfriend explained that it par for the course. I just don't get that. The reverse would never have occurred.

Basically, I just wanted to state that Ms. Vincent's writings on her experience with the bowling league spoke to me. Instead of the dreary reality of constant criticism of maleness that much of modern feminism has become, I think it would be far more beneficial for all if more in-depth examinations of this type were undertook. We all have a lot to learn from each other. As Mr. O'Hehir rightly pointed out, men have learned a lot - and we work to integrated that knowledge into our lives, and have benefited as a result - from the women's movement. It may be time for the women's movement to learn something from men. How often have I seen my female friends viciously dissect the clothing and handbag choices of a female acquaintance, and draw insulting conclusions regarding her character from it? I guarantee you, there is no male equivalent to that behavior.