Just to politely clarify my position, I'm not annoyed that salon would run a story about religion. I just don't think religion should have any influence over a secular society.

Excuse me jg, I thought again about your question after I replied last. Other posters seemed annoyed that Salon would address religion at all, but on thinking again, I thought: "perhaps when asking, 'why must religious people talk about their religion,' jg wasn't referring to this column, but to people talking to strangers, in really moronic ways, about their religion." I think there is great value in discussing religion intelligently, and a great necessity to do so. But there is absolutely no excuse, for instance, for mindlessly parroting the name of Jesus to strangers, in the mistaken belief that it will win any thinking person to believing as well. That _is_ delusional, and I think it actually damages Christianity.

I also do not believe we should select our laws based on scripture (which scripture, then? Don't forget there are millions of Jews, Muslims and Hindus, not to mention Buddhists, some Shintoists, and Confucians, in the United States; also, why start at gays, but stop at banning easter ham, or sleeping with your wife when she's on her period, as I believe the Old Testament bans?).

Finally, George W. Bush seems simply to be pandering to a Christian part of his base, just as Hitler did in the speeches cited earlier.

glad to know the dictionary is among your sacred texts. But nothing in the dictionary definition of atheism is incompatible with my personal definition. It is certainly possible to be completely indifferent to something and disbelieve it at the same time.

And I apologize if I mischaracterized your rambling discussion of "theism" as "theology." But as I've explained, such matters are of little consequence to me except insofar as religious precepts and trends encroach on our secular rights. I don't know much about astrology or scientology either, so if you'd like to take me to task for those glaring gaps in my knowledge, feel free.

Finally, as you seem to be fond of "what if" speculation: what if atheism is innate in humans, and religion only a reaction to the "horrible" knowledge that dwells deep within us that life is without meaning or purpose? I guess "believing" that makes me something of a nihilist, but I'm too lazy to look it up. Why don't you do the honors...

Just to politely clarify my position, I'm not annoyed that salon would run a story about religion. I just don't think religion should have any influence over a secular society.

For example, and I think I used this example here earlier, when someone says that same sex marriage should be illegal because it's in the bible, that's bullshit. The bible isn't the foundation for laws in a secular society and should not be taken into consideration when crafting legislation. This is not a theocracy. Our lawmakers are not held to upholding what is in the bible. They are given the task, among other things, of upholding what is written in our constitution.

Just wanted to clarify, thanks.

Oh, and one last thing. I also take huge issue with Bush saying some of the crazy, nonsense things he does, like how god talks to him, or how god wanted him to be president. Really? Because correct me if I'm wrong but that sounds like divine power, which is what a monarchy is, not a fucking democracy. So excuse me for getting a little testy here but I've really had enough of the god parading by corrupt leaders.

"But what about those who HAVE known the sacred? I have experienced religious nirvana only a few times in my life, but it felt just as REAL as anything else I've expereinced. So isn't it therefor rationale to be devoted to the sacred. It was mysterious, but still quite real."

Certainly, if you feel with absolute certainty you have been touched by the hand of God, you would be nuts to ignore such a feeling.

This is not meant to sound insulting, but I would suggest that perhaps there is an explanation for what you felt that does not depend on the veracity of any of the world's religions or the existence of a supreme being.

For example, epileptics often report feelings of religious ecstascy connected with their fits. It's widely know that various drugs can cause hallucinations which are indecernable from reality.

Schitzophenics sometimes hear nonexistent voices with absolute certainty.

There is certainly lots about the human mind and body that is not understood very well, and perhaps never will be no matter how much we try.

Again I'm not trying to be insulting; if I ever experienced what you're talking about, I'd have a hard time not believing it too, but perhaps there is some other explanation for what happened to you?

Arty is right about the impossibility of proving definitively there is no God, but I think he's missing the point of the numerology example. The point is there are lots of ideas which cannot be definitely disproven in an airtight, mathematical sense. One can posit the existence of all sorts of things. Perhaps there exists a divine and omnipotent creator...perhaps the old "none of this is real, you're just a brain in a jar" college freshman idea is correct...perhaps the number 3 is somehow linked to the divine, or maybe 7 is, or 11...Maybe I am your God and you ought to send me your money lest your incur my wrath. When confronted with the possible existence of some construct that is imbued with suposedly supernatural aspects, there is no way to disprove its existence. The best, it seems, one can do in evaluating an idea's worth is to examine all of the evidence in support of, or against said idea.

Those of us who view religious claims under this lense, see atheism as a narrow part of the same impulse that keeps us from believing in all sorts of unsupported claims. It's not a seperate belief system for us so much as it is a very specific example of what's widely called "common sense", or even "sanity".

I'm an atheist for the exact same reason I don't believe in ghosts, or that the world will end tomorrow, or that it'd be a really good idea to send spammers my credit card number.

At one point Arty seems to conflate Atheist's attempts at "proving" there is no deity with proving there is no meaning in anyone's life. I don't know if this is his view, but many religious people seem to believe that without God, life has no meaning. This, to my sort of brand of Atheist, makes as little sense as saying that rejecting the divinity of the number 11 is tantamount to saying life is meaningless. Again, atheism for me, is not a moral code, or a daily ritual. It has little to do with why I get out of bed in the morning, or how I treat other people. It's the rejection of what seems to be untrue. Meaning, for my own life, comes from other sources.