Letters to the Editor
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Science has no basis
in spirituality. Science is not total utter bullshit, which religion in all it's forms is. Science seeks to illuminate and demonstrate, through practice and testing. It is factual and demonstrative. Religion is all about power and control. Making up fairy tales to instill fear and compliance in people. There is no god. There is no devil. There is no heaven or hell. If they exist, scientifically prove and demonstrate it. I can demonstrate and prove the existence of quarks and gluons and other subatomic matter. Why can't you prove the existence of god? Simple answer: because they don't exist, at any level. We are a product of hundreds of millions of years of evolution. What makes Zeus and Apollo any less than the christian god? What makes Mithraism any less valid or demonstrable than christianity? Nothing does. Virgin birth, son of god, messiah, etc are part of all faiths and religions, both existing and dead religions. Religion was created to explain that which was unexplainable for thousands of years. It was threatened by science, when dispelled the voodoo bullshit of the river gods, of the earth gods, of the christian god, etc. That is why Copernicus, Gallileo and others were hated and excommunicated by the the church. It threatened their power and manipulation over the people. Sell your snake oil someplace else where people are more gullible.
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Gnosticism
Dear Fred Duquette,
Thats gnostic thinking: there are no facts, just allegories, except for the fact that all is allegory,which is the only truth one neeed "know" to achieve enlightenment.
Which Gnostic texts have given you this impression?
No one here is suggesting a revival of Gnosticism, to pretend that they are is to distort their intent. Historians, like me, wish to use all the sources availible to reconstruct how Christianity developed.
The problem is that the gnostic Jesus and the gospel Jesus are saying two completely different and opposed things.
It is true that they are the product of different ancient views of Jesus; what quotes do you have in mind that show they are 'opposite'? Which form of Gnosticism? (There were several.)
We also have original documents, ancient manuscripts, from both the gospels and the judas document.
We don't, in either case. The survivng manuscripts of both the canonical gospels and the Gospel of Judas are copies of copies: Bart Ehrman's book _Misquoting Jesus_ is a good explanation of how the New Testament came to be, and our one manuscript of 'Judas' comes long after Irenaeus first mentioned the text.
Scholars call 'Judas' a gospel because that was its title in Antiquity: we are not in the business of doing theology, if the scribe who copied a book called it a gospel, we use whatever title they did.
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Give 'em the mustard, Ben
We'll beat back this superstitious lot yet!
Alex. Alex... Alex! O'Neal, you have indeed wasted your time in your resopnse. Perhaps, O'Neal, you should have saved it for the 5th grade audience it was intended for?
Do you seriously think, O'Neal, that John Wheeler really thinks that God and Satan, and Wotan actually exists? Is that what you take him to mean? Is that how you pervert his theories?
Why go on, Alex? I've told you before that just saying "Quantum "X"" isn't enough. Oh no! You mean matter and energy on smaller scales operate different than they do on larger scales? The hell you say! At 70 miles per hour the wind feels cool, but at 7,000 the friction is hot! Abraham and the ram must be true! And what have we done to atone for the suffering of Prometheus? Are tiny, tiny, grandmother-spider-strings carrying energy to us from the sun?
Tragically, O'Neal, Einstien got it wrong- legitimate conflicts between science and religion do exist.
And religion keeps losing.
Just like you.
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Don't put words in my mouth
Tobbar, I never said anything about any specific religions. I never put words in Wheeler's mouth that weren't his (that would be bearing false witness ;-). Sprirituality does not equal Wotan or a resurrection. It comes in many flavors, and encompasses consciousness (something I'm pretty sure you experience) and the sense of wonder many an atheist scientist feels at the universe.
You are not addressing the context of the argument. You say, science and spirituality have nothing to say to each other. Others better than both of us say they do. That's the extent of my claim. I lack your pride; I cannot claim Einstein, et. al., got it wrong, since I lack their expertise and insight. I'm honored to correspond with someone as wise and as deeply educated as you must be, to be able to do so.
Please, don't put words in my mouth as straw men to knock down. That's you being the "loser," not me. Since I don't think the question can be answered, I'm not trying to win anything, except perhaps respect between both sides for each other. Just furthering the debate and promoting open-minded thought.
I am not selling anything; I am a strong agnostic and have been all of my adult life. The first half of that agnosticism was as an atheist, the second as a religious person. In both situations I knew my understanding to be ironic and liable to change (by any chance, did you even read my starred letter in this thread?).
I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over :-)
Adiós, mis amigos! Have a lovely Easter weekend!
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footnote
You mean matter and energy on smaller scales operate different than they do on larger scales? The hell you say!
Actually, Wheeler and Bohm are saying that this traditional view of the separation of quantum mechanical and macro universe is probably misleading. So no, they don't act differently. That's my point.
Ok, *now* I'm through.
You may all now breathe a sigh of relief and post ad hominem attacks about my unscientific, superstitious belief in scholarly scientific research :-)
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Mr. Oneal,
I am sure you have the best of intentions. There is no god, there is no devil, heaven and hell don't exist. Religious nutjobs and wingnuts have successfully hijacked much of our educational system and government selling an extreme version of what you are selling, wingnuttery and a rejection of science and scientific method for "miracles" and other hocus pocus.