Firstly and foremost, I'd like to say that I really enjoyed putting together a response to your post.

"With respect, I doubt anyone without specific experience with Iran at that time would see the Shah's regime as the episode when 'America went bad.'

I was drafted into the US Navy during the Korean War and was "bemused" and also confused as to why I was in the service and fighting (never saw action) against an enemy that I had no grievance against. It was then that I thought that the world as I knew it didn't make sense. My ship went to Beirut as a show of force to support Hussein of Jordan. That never made sense to me. We made several trips to Cuba while Castro was still in the mountains and at the time I said to myself, seeing the poverty in Cuba contrasted with the enormous wealth of some, I said to myself, that this country was ripe for a revolution.

What I am saying to you is that at an early stage of my life I was trying to deal with the inequities of life and not being able to resolve anything. Today, nothing has changed.

When did America go bad? Probably when the government was building forts and killing the native-american indians.

I agree that "the lesson may simply be that there never was a time of absolute American goodness."

And of course I agree that the USA has had positive impacts on the world. World War II prevented the world from a living hell if it had not been for us.

I don't think that there is any question that I am more cynical than you. I am deeply cynical.

"If tomorrow the US put the resources it commits to human rights research into tax cuts, would you really just shrug and say, 'Eh, it wasn't making any difference anyway?'"

No, it's just that I find it ironic that the biggest violator of human rights in the world is issuing a report chastising other countries for doing the same thing.

"And yet, isn't that what you're saying? That we're bemused (no idea what's going on), uninvolved (fire-and-forget foreign policy), and forgetful (don't want to know our dark history)?"

No, I feel that the USA is aggressively involved (CIA) in disrupting any country that it feels it can exploit to the advantage of the USA. And incidentally, to use any means at all to accomplish this. That's just wrong, wrong, wrong!

"But because of that, those few among us who are well-informed, and either wicked or inept, can do lots of harm with impunity."

I disagree. The only people who can do lots of harm with impunity are the politicians and the military. And that upsets me no end.

"In my view, saying, 'It doesn't matter, everything we do sucks,' is not much better than 'We can do no wrong, ever.

To me it is depressing that the average citizen in the USA just doesn't care. As long as they are living decently they don't care about gross inequities and even the absolute corruption of elected officials. In addition to yours, I also always read Kovie's posts. He believes that if the citizenry reacts to the wrongs of the politicians, things will change for the better. I don't think it will happen until the citizenry "hits its bottom." Not in the foreseeable future.

"Iraq had for a decade utterly lacked access to raw materials that you just must have to make serious WMDs. Knowing that wasn't rocket science. (Ha ha.)"

One experience I had in the Middle East was when it was decided that we would educate some recent university graduates in data processing. The task fell upon me. It was an impossible undertaking. Arabs, prior to the discovery of oil were Bedouins roaming the desert and their aptitude for math or logical reasoning was almost non-existent. Perhaps I was a poor instructor, but the effort failed hugely.

"I remember because they made me cringe at the time. Nobody had learned anything from the Gulf War."

I read all the books about the experience France had in Algieria during the run-up to the Iraq War. The USA duplicated what France experienced. The past was prologue!

"I'm not saying that the Iraq war could ever have turned out better under any circumstances. Maybe it's couldn't."

It could have turned out better if it had never happened.

"But before you say that it was hopeless from the start, ask yourself: if everyone in Iraq hated us implacably from day 0, why did the later construction of the Green Zone hork everyone off so much? Why do Iraqis now talk about Abu Ghraib having been such a turning point?"

I have had a lot of Arab friends. Of course they are of a different culture and it is not easy to socialize with them. I recall many of our attempts at social endeavors being quite awkward. But I found them generally very friendly, possessing a good sense of humor, and anxious to please. They are devoutly religious and dedicated to Allah. The saying heard over and over on a daily basis in Arabic is Inshallah. God Willing! I don't recall saying "everyone hated us implacably from day 0." But I have great difficulty equating the gentle people I have met over there with terrorists. I know it happens but people I met in the Middle East on a daily basis were truly peace loving.

"And yet there are uneducated peasants in other villages who cheer when the Peace Corps comes, because it means that for the two years that the (bemused, perhaps) American girl is going to be hanging out there, the death squads won't murder anyone."

I just don't see how the war crimes committed by the CIA can be erased or prevented by acts of the Peace Corp. I don't see the relevance.

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Yano