Ideally I would only ask one thing, well, two things: (1) that the ones who want to carry on define what will constitute a defeat in their eyes; and (2) when that happens, as it will, they surrender themselves for life sentences in jail for war crimes.

That includes you, shooter, and seaberry too.

-- ALupin

The problem is, "defeat" means leaving. If the war mongers have their way, they won't leave voluntarily -- I'm picturing helicopters lifting off from the remains of the U.S. Embassy in Iraq with shouting, crying Iraqis left behind. Then, the war mongers will still blame the "defeatocrats" -- because if it hadn't been for us, the Glorious War Would Have Been Won!!!!

I just watched "The Killing Fields" last night for the first time since initial release. A worthwhile film to watch again now. We have learned nothing...except how to make a war more palatable to the homefront.

The country failed when it invaded Iraq. How we got here is quite relevant. What part of "war of aggression" and "war crime" don't you understand?

-- Frankly, my dear, ...

But it's not a war crime if WE do it! Don't be silly. We only do good stuff.

I was watching "Flying Tigers" with John Wayne, 1942, lovely sappy semi-true WWII war stuff. Made me sad -- it really hit me that we are the Japanese and the Germans now. But that's OK with the shooters and their group. To them, all that matters is that we "win", whatever that means. (If they could define it, that would help just a little.)

a good argument for invading Iraq? I thought Clinton was the arch-enemy devil slut-f**ker married to the lesbian witch? If Mr. & Mrs. Clinton thought it was good, shouldn't that mean it was bad, at least according to the Right Wing Idiots?

Honestly, you Bush Suckers make me crazy.

Listen, I don't care if every politician ever elected in the 20th century thought invading Iraq was a great idea. It wasn't. They were all wrong, whoever thought it. It was a terrible idea for a bunch of reasons: a) it was morally wrong; b) it was militarily a bad idea; c) it was geopolitically a bad idea; and d) it was handled by President ScrewUp.

A bad and immoral idea executed with total incompetence is the recipe for A Big Problem. Which we have on our hands right now. Which is why it is time for all the idiots who thought it was a great idea, whoever they are or were, to get out of the way and let the people who had a brain in their heads, instead of big throbbing revenge hard-on, try to figure out how to get out of this mess with the least amount of carnage.

Now, go away.

Anything, anything but more of this nonsense....

-- William Timberman

Seconded.

My neurons are already blowed, but it's time to rein in the imperial beast.

can we stop with the libertarian flame wars, Mona way-back machine, etc.? It's really childish and tedious. If you guys want to argue and belittle each other, please do it elsewhere. LGF is a good place for that kind of crap, why don't you give them a try and leave the rest of us out of it?

Honestly, it's like Daddy Glenn goes away for a few hours and the junior high crew takes over and starts trashing the place.

How did Holly phrase it? STFU? I'm pretty sure that was it.

I also happen to think that the crisis our nation is currently facing is sufficiently dire, that we shouldn't be discouraging anyone who cares to lend a hand, no matter what we think of their motives. Just my .02 USD.

-- Paul Dirk

Yes. 100%. We can argue about the other crap later. Right now, we've got a Constitution to protect, an occupation to end, and a buncha war-mongers to rein in.

For those who didn't see the post upthread, apparently the Bushies got reined in by the FISA Court a few months ago, which is why they're trying to change the law. Call your Congresscritter and urge them to hold the line. Here's Marty Lederman:

http://balkin.blogspot.com/

So give Bush the surveillance expansion. It's only for 6 months. This buys Democrats 6 months. If there is a domestic terrorist attack within that time period (please, no), Republicans (and Joe Klein) won't be able to pin the blame on weak Democrats. The attack will have happened on the neocon watch, with neocon policies. I really do think that the overarching goal of the Democratic Party at this point has to be to win elections (even if, like sausagemaking, it's not pretty), particularly the presidential race in 2008, so that there isn't the permanent one-party military-industrial rule. When the Democrats are truly in power - which right now they are not - then we can hold their feet to the fire and hope for a wholly reimagined foreign policy that does not rely overly and inappropriately on curtailment of domestic civil liberties.

Oh, I get it! The Dems are only pretending to be spineless wimps as a clever ruse to infiltrate the halls of power. Then when they have everyone believing their are just meek and mild mannered geeks, they whip off the glasses and, behold!, Super Dems! With their hands on the wheel of the Ship of State! And the antidote for kryptonite in their powerful grip. Hooray! We're saved!

Unfortunately, I believe the Dems are much more like the Social Democrats in Germany prior to WWII. Those Dems were waiting for just the right moment to push back against that crass fool, Hitler. Too bad for us all that when the right moment finally came, it was too late.