Been slowly reading through Glen's column than all the comments and I come to what che pasa said and what you said back to him. the tension between you two's position sort of sums up how I feel: I am convinced both that che pasa is right and that you are as well. That I know it is hopeless but that I must ACT as if it is not. That relates to the background free will debate, which I interpret via William James and the pragmatists: that we must act as if we have free will no matter what (i.e. even if in reality we have no free will that is not something we can ever know, so since we must act as if we have free will, you might as well just say we do have free will and let it go at that). It's fun to read through James' essay with freshman (I am a teacher) very slowly and get them to see his point (his great essay on free will and determinism). When I read Glen's column and then read through all you fine folks talking to each other I always at first feel real despair and then come to this same point again and again: I must act as if there is hope to be the kind of person I want to be, that I can respect (self-respect is sort of a touchstone with me). But it does feel like the levees have broke (I'm originally from new orleans, natch) we're in a flood, and I'm swimming hard for the rooftops, and there are not enough coast guard guys in sight. But if I don't swim I know I won't make it, even if I know if I do swim it is only probable I'll be picked up. Or something like that. Thanks again for the interesting discussion, everyone, which always helps me think and keeps me swimming for the rootops. Even the art guerilla guy, who I think of as sneering at me as I swim past!

The position I was trying to state was that since we can never KNOW whether we have free will or not (for reasons Kant argues for in his Critique:free will vs. determinism as antinomies), and since we MUST act as if we do have free will, then the debate on free will is moot.

We have no choice (he he) but to accept that we are free (hmmm: did Sartre crib that from Kant too?)

And I know this is off topic guys, but it is still fun, the little subtexts that spring up. It helps keep us human.

And good luck to bebop traveling in KY or wherever you are: be safe!