Unless his lt. and cpt. were morons, they had to know what was going on if they were doing there jobs at all. Clearly if Graner was the ringleader then his immediate superiors were so negligent as to be criminal in their dereliction of duties. It seems clear to me that the real ringleader were in fact the CIA operatives who came in and set all this up. But still, as a former officer, my greatest contempt is for the lt. and cpt. who were the supervisors. They were the ones who could have bucked the system more effectively. Total weasels, copping out on their oath.

I am totally with you in what you say. I have no sympathy for Graner beyond the fact that he is imprisoned alone, when his immediate superiors should be with him. When I was a platoon leader, I can remember getting jacked up when one of my people didn't have the correct items in the duffel bag for deployment: I cannot imagine having one of my sergeants torturing people and me getting off scot free. What bullshit not that he is being punished but that he is being punished alone. Those of his superiors who violated their oath as well disgust me far more than him.

that Glenn Greenwald was named to take Russert's place on meet the press. I had next Sunday all planned: a tasty gourmet breakfast with cafe con leche afterward to savor the moment of the triumph of reason in our fair nation's political journalism.

Then I woke up because my clown nose was pushing into my pillow and pinching my nostrils shut.

Now that you mention it, does not Brian Williams also bear an uncanny resemblance to "Howling Mad" Murdock?

for highlighting this. Our leaders seem to constantly miss the most basic points about being an effective leader (i.e. one in tune with reality--the real point about torture is how it defeats itself and destroys those who use it. A true pragmatist would run from the use of torture like from a clearly evident disaster just waiting to happen):

I have three treasures

To maintain and conserve:

The first is compassion.

The second if frugality.

The third is not presuming

To be the first under heaven.

Nowadays

People reject compassion

But want to be brave,

Reject frugality

But want to be generous,

Reject humility

And want to come first.

This is death.

Compassion:

Attack with it and win.

Defend with it and stand firm.

Heaven aids and protects

Through compassion.

The accomplished person is not aggressive.

The good soldier is not hot-tempered.

The best conqueror does not engage the enemy.

The most effective leader takes the lowest place.

This is called the integrity of not contending.

This is called the power of the leader.

This is called matching Heaven’s ideal. (Tao Te Ching 68)

There is no disaster greater than

Contempt for the enemy.

Contempt for the enemy—

What a treasure lost!

Therefore,

When the fighting gets hot,

Those who grieve will conquer. (TTC 69)

When many people are killed

We feel sorrow and grief.

A great victory

Is a funeral ceremony. (TTC 31)

If you can never say never, I would not trust you to babysit my childern, let alone govern my country.

You wrote: "Would you have permitted the torture of one person if it would have prevented the Holocaust?"

If per impossible such a thing would happen, I would argue that in the very moment your magical action prevented the Holocaust, you would have laid the inevitable root for a new one to spring up, by becoming what you thought you had destroyed.

If what you call a first principle admits of an exception, then it is not a first principle. You are saying you have no first principles. That you would degrade another human being in certain circumstances. I think that thought is the first step of a descent into moral madness.

I have greatly appreciated your posts today, which have an admirable clarity. I particulary like the point about specifics: how do each of us start to make a particular effort that would result in the desired general effect? Until you can answer that, an answer would have no traction.

I hope you keep posting (paricularly as you did in your answer to the one so fascinated with hypotheticals: your response was a small moment of real education).