that leningrad cowboys clip with the red army band was truly unexpected: the switch between the lead singer with the pointy shoes and hair to the red army officers gustily singing sweet home alabama . . . well, I am speechless.

does anyone else here ever feel like on these threads that they are overhearing conversations from some russian historical novel, where the anarchists and the collectivists and the individualists of various persuasions and sub-persuasions engage in endless discussions on doctrinal differences? Or maybe its just RMP's clip that set off the associations.

"watching people pounding their rhetorical dicks on the table"

Just think of it with the accouterments of the ancient greek stage, the huge stage phalluses, and everyone arguing around a big table . . . well, you can imagine.

Now back to the red army band.

I didn't say it was a BAD thing.

Just think of those ancient greek stage accouterments rigged up with water gun technology: Aristophanes would have went wild with that one.

Thank you for your comments here. They are a big help in my continuing education.

Yeah. My mom has her positives and negatives, but one thing she did for me I can never repay. 45 years ago in a department store in New Orleans she took me up to a place where there were two separate water fountains. And over one it said "white only" and over another it said "colored only". and she got my little 6 year old lily white red-headed self's attention and pointed at it and said: "See that. That's stupid, Jimmy." And she took me up to get a drink from the "colored only" fountain.

Yes. Mothers. Thanks again, Mom.

Sir: with all respect, just because something seems to be gibberish to you does not mean that it is. There are many things in my life I have thought to be nonsense that I have later come to see have meaning. Though I disagree with many things you say, I do not wish to demean you. When I find something to be "gibbiresh" I often find myself wondering if something is wrong with me. I have read Mr. Celery for many months now and he has helped me in many ways by what he says. When I find what he says to be incomprehensible I take it that I perhaps do not understand.

A buddhist bow to you, sir.

thanks for the Murray quote. Astonishing!

to the two quotes you gave from McCain about the military engagement with Hussein's army is that he was correct: his army did basically give up, and the MILITARY engagement was a cakewalk. So his judgement was correct there. What he failed to see, like Shineski and others did, was the difficulty of the occupation and how hard that would be. But I think the quotes you give, Glenn, and highlight, are not relavent to that. If I was a McCain supporter (which I am not), I think I would point that out.

our hypothetical McCain supporter would have no obvious or even subtle response available for you other points.

spelling :)

thanks for the Chomsky quote: it is amazingly clear. The point that stuck out at me was Jackson saying the Nuremburg trials would retroactively become a farce if we didn't live up to the standards we imposed on them. And now we see that we did not live up to those standards. How shameful is that for us? But then, I suppose what it really shows is that America is no different from any other of the great empires that have come down the pike. Childhood illusions are just so hard and painful to shake.

And think how hard this point would be to bring up in public discourse. But hasn't it always been that way too?

this war is a stain on every American's soul

Yes, it is. And we have to keep on saying it. Because the real horror of the war is what it did to innocent people in Iraq. They are the real essence of the issue. The deaths and injuries to our troops are basically collateral damage: the real damage is the innocent ones who are dead or have their lives ruined. And I was a soldier. And I hurt for the soldiers who were sent into this for no good reason. But even a soldier would say that the dead Iraqi children perhaps should take front and center.

as your quotes from adam smith show, and the quotes for lawrence, and for god's sake quotes from Thucydides. And the wars are usually good for them, these elites, ranging from the media guys who got it wrong and got promotions to the politicos to the corporations who grew even richer. And the only elites who suffer who those who speak against it, like Shineski (and they don't suffer that much). It makes you want to rage and rage until you puke your guts out. And then get up and rage again. Or be all quiet and rational, if that will help. But keep trying. Who knows what will happen? Awareness of human limits is the key. I don't know everything. Maybe if we all keep on trying something good will come about. The worst thing to do would be to give in, because then when it came your time to die you would die ashamed of who you are. Can't imagine a worse thought than that.