Yes, heres the rub: So what I am wondering is this: do you think the desire for everyone to act before ‘I’ will, stems from a desire to act knowing that I will help ‘change the game,’ or, rather, from an increased willingness to go without as long as I don’t end up with less than the people around me?

for me its a matter of doing things that matter. For example, I have given the 20 bucks and received the letters and so forth and that makes me willing to fork over more. It gets murkier when it involves, say, walking instead of driving a car. It takes, perhaps, a certain critical mass for the actions to make sense. Personally, if you could show me that my doing less than everyone around me would effect change then I would be perfectly willing to do so (sort of like a soldier dying, right? in a good cause? assuming you can find a good one to die in? I would be perfectly willing to do without my life (quite a bit less than those who continue to live!) if it were in the cause of having a change of ending that. But for me there must be a real chance, otherwise what is the point? Unless it is time to fall on my sword for honor's sake, which is another thing altogether. Some things are clear to me, others not, alas. I suppose I would rather die than commit a real injustice: the problem is getting clear on what that is. Some real injustices are clear to me. Others are not. the investigation continues.

wish I hadn't read the thread today: now my memory of Charlton Heston strapped on the horse leading the charge as the dead hero is forever in question. Is nothing sacred?

What a great quote from Swinton. Perhaps each generation has to rediscover the shock of being born and raised in Plato's cave.

was one of my favorite theologians. He said that christians should shut up for about a hundred years and just listen (too much god-talk talk talk) just shut up and listen to earn the right to speak again. Live a normal life, he said, don't pretend to be what you are not: listen listen listen.

Like to go to that church I would.

Thanks for helping those folks. A soldier's work is never done.

wrote: The US culture and legislation, it seems to me, concentrates on granting opportunity to the strong.

Alas, well said and to the point. My country can be a terrifying place to live for the weak.

You wrote: A Nature's revenge may take time? Nature will bring retribution at the proper moment?

the ancient greek goddess Anagke: Necessity. Represents nature.

hubris is thinking one can ignore necessity and move beyond one's proper limits.

opposite of hubris: lucid awareness of one's limits. (Camus)

You also said: It's remembrance recall.

We must remember who we are. Know yourself, the oracle at delphi said: know your nature, your necessity, your proper limits.

If we step beyond the limits then justice (dikaiosune) will strike us down.

(Ever read an essay by Albert Camus called "Helen's Exile?" Your words made me think of that essay.)

Beautiful words: it's remembrance recall.

"This little quirk about bringing the foundations of our country into harmony with the texts of an ancient tribal religion can't really be who he IS"

hehe

Thanks, bebop-o, for giving me a smile today.

Wonderful. Even this moment, reading this: who would have thought when I began to read this thread I would not only run into a quote from Also Sprach Zarathustra but one of my favorite lines from German poetry? Yes indeed, say to the moment: stay, for you are so fair.

Thanks for the reminder, WT!

(for surely there are many reasons to be upset in this world):

Verweile doch, du bist so schön.

Thanks for the reference to the Kevin Phillips book. I checked it out on Amazon and have ordered it: it looks useful for my continuing education.

Save yourselves. Indeed. Hair raising summary there in your past post, and it really made me think: how do I save myself?

Then I remembered.

I hear the breeze outside, and the drip of the rain.

I hear my son playing guitar in his room.

I hear my old mother messing around in the kitchen, muttering to herself about the messy scamps she lives with.

I just had a warm cup of soup.

All I ever have is right now. Amazing to live one second. Thich Nhat Hanh said: the real miracle is not to walk on water. It is to walk on the earth.

Glad to be walking the earth with you strange characters. Save yourselves.

unacompanied cello for me (to listen to, over and over, on my handy ipod thingy). And if you have ever heard some of it live, it will take you places.

you have summed up my feelings on this subject quite clearly. I voted for Bill Clinton twice; even though I was very dissapointed with him for "don't ask don't tell" (god that hacked me off) and his incredibly ridiculous personal behaviour, I still thought of him as a force for good. I no longer do. There is no way I can see rewarding this behavior by voting for Hilary Clinton if she is the nominee. That makes me sad. Damn it, how frustrating all of this is! Everything is so precarious and dangerous for us all right now, and to have so-called leaders acting like this fills me with astonished anger.