Whose principle? Yours? Mine? Whose? Maybe her "principle" was the safety of the country. Do you bother to think about that?

And if Clinton had been so cowardly and so mediocre, I don't think she would be where she is and still taking the bullshit she's had to take. Maybe you ought to think more carefully about what is courage before you go off on calling someone cowardly.

"Easier for him to do from his venue? Sure."

Damn straight easier, I'd say. He didn't haven't to sacrifice much did he? We could get into a whole discussion about how "courageous" it is...or isn't...to judge others actions from a safe and comfy distance.

Time to go.

Both.

But then you must concede that judgment of yours about ALL of the other democratic senators who voted for the war.

Sorry, Obama didn't have to make that choice. It's pretty damn easy to sit in judgment of others when it's in hindsight and you don't have to pay a price for your decision.

Honestly, I didn't like Clinton's war vote either. But I read her speech to the Senate at that time and I believe her assertions over it. I do think that her evaluation of Saddam was correct in that he could not be too coddled - I think she shared Bill's evaluation of him (and maybe for good reason). But I think this evaluation of hers dated from when Bill was in office and Saddam had greatly weakened politically since then and I don't think she or, obviously, anyone was that aware of that. And I do think people need to remember that she was the Senator from New York! New York! To ignore her state would have been political suicide completely.

Obama "lies":

"Senator Obama was in Selma, Alabama, before a mostly AA crowd at the Brown Chapel AME Church on March 4th, 2007. He clearly stated “because some folks were willing to march across a bridge . . . they (his parents) got together, and Barack Obama, Jr. was born. So don’t tell me I don’t have a claim on Selma, Alabama!” Barack Hussein Obama was born on August 4, 1961. The first march on Selma, Alabama occurred on March 7, 1965."

I watched the video of him saying this - I thought perhaps it's symbolic or something - didn't seem like it. I asked one of my black friends and he laughed and said he didn't know but it sounded like he was bullshitting for the rapport with the audience.

2. “My Kenyan Grandmother has always been a Christian.” Apparently, Obama's own grandmother was muslim and contradicts this statement herself. (NYT aritcle about it.)

3. “I Was A Constitutional Lawyer” Obama was a senior lecturer on leave of absence. He has never practiced Constitutional Law, nor ever obtained any such ‘title’. Actually documented at the University of Chicago.

4. “I ‘misvoted’ a couple times in the Illinois State House.” Only when caught by church groups and fellow Democrats, did Senator Obama request to change his half dozen “misvotes” in the Illinois State House. LATimes aritcle and NYdaily & Time.

I could go on. But I don't think you would want me to do that. He's human. Just like the Clintons.

Anyway, I'm off to a dinner party. Goodnight.

Thank you! It has been a refreshing conversation. And we'll hope that it signals a change for the better half of our selves for all of us.

Interesting story on your friend. I think probably exemplifies the whole dynamic split of this campaign. And I didn't know Bill had an office in Harlem? How interesting! Says something there.

You know, probably Bill, more than Hillary, feels some sadness at being devalued by the majority of blacks. I mean he probably understands it, but if he felt some pride in really knowing a lot of blacks and working closely with them, it's probably difficult for him.

Anyway, I think this whole campaign has been the belly of the beast for them. And for us all. And we're not done yet.

Hey girl!

Anyway, yeah, nobody bothers to really look at the facts of the actual transcript of that video but merely go with what the insinuation of what the MSM has told them to think. That video that was played by MSM at the time was edited for that statement about Jackson and that statement only. The fact that Jackson's name was part of a long list he was talking about doesn't EVER get stated. Talk about manipulation by the MSM!

But people hear what they want to hear and forget the rest.

I didn't say they didn't know how to play the game. It's just this weird absolute black & white thinking meme that's passed around that somehow they're calculating every move down to the inth degree. Sorry, not possible. Sorry, these people are human, not devils and they failed a lot. Obviously. So will Obama.

And I'm not talking black and white thinking in race terms, I'm talking in how people think in absolutes of either/or. There's no devil incarnate here. Well, Bush, yeah. Cheney, yeah. Rove, really yeah.

But the Clintons have worked their asses off for their country and the Democratic party. Are they ambitious? Hell yeah! So is Obama. He damn well better be. Have they lied? Yep? Damn straight. Has Obama lied? Please. Have they played the game? Duh. And so has Obama.

But they are all on our side!

No.

WHY? Because that didn't work particularly well either, did it?

Try this. How about Bill was pissed. If you study the video, he is being baited by the MSM. THEY KNEW IT. Let's bait Bill. So he states that fact of Jesse Jackson winning that state, too, and it was a fact for that state. Not particulary gracious, no. Race baiting? Dog whistle to whites? In that, Bill knows better. He was pissed and that's all...there...was...to...it. Was it stupid? Yes. Racist or race baiting? No.