That was a long winded and incorrect assessment of what both Susan and I were saying.

It doesn't matter what needs to happen in the positive, or what might happen in the negative. There is no reason in hell to expect anything positive from this administration. That is the point and the only point I was making.

Your assessment of what needs to happen is not a mystery to me, at all. But it doesn't make a wit of difference so long as the liars are at the helm. That was my point. And, frankly, I don't see how you overlooked that, and so I didn't appreciate the lecture, considering how you missed the most simple and seemingly obvious point from the outset.

Edit...I meant Diana Powell, not Susan

@Kitt

If you say so, then I apologize.

But I distinctly have not heard any plan from those who want to pull out other than pull out. I find that irresponsible, even though I want us out with all due haste. As well as being a violation of international law for occupying powers.

Once again, if you include this all in your point of view, and if Diana Powe was not saying that admitting culpability precedes leaving, I apologize.

-- ondelette

You're still missing my point. There is no reasoning with the current administration. So that is why those who say 'pull out' don't elaborate or lay out the "ultimate plan". What would be the point. It is called, 'forcing the wife beater to stand on the sideline', subdued by big cops, while the wife makes her get away. There is no point in playing a game of consulting with the wife beater. He doesn't do consulting. He just beats and beats until the wife is dead. And even after that he will say it was the wife's fault, no matter what anyone else says.

I don't get what you're missing. The president of the US is George Bush. Are you trying to convince that imbecile of the best way to pull out of Iraq. I guess you must be, because it is he who needs convincing on how to do it. Not me.

That was all I was trying to say, I was saying don't ignore the hard stuff, don't torpedo our exit by refusing to have a plan. If we disagree on that, so be it. We don't disagree on the prize, however. And although I did mean to be critical, I sincerely didn't mean to offend. So I am apologizing for offending you.

-- ondelette

I'm fine with having and 'stating' a plan, and in as much detail as possible. But, you see, that 'plan' would have to be carried out by this current administration. And I'm fine with calling the current administration war criminals. It's just that I don't think any of that will have any effect on the administration, or also most of the media. So, the only way to get out is to de-fund The Occupation. Doesn't much matter how you explain how you're going to get out. But if the military is de-funded except for getting out, that would in itself change hands of the exit in to the hands of people who might have the best interest of the troops in mind.

The more they make their case while they are doing so the better but that will/would be salad dressing only. More people would get benind them. That would help, but then, more people are behind already, and that hasn't helped...much. But none of it will make any difference to the administration. The administration needs to be taken down by the power of the purse and the power of The Constitution. No amount of 'we're in the right, and here is our case', will make a dent in them.

In the seven or so years between Westmoreland's [Patraeus} speech and the end of the war, over 35,000 Americans died in Vietnam...[Iraq].

http://tinyurl.com/35h32g

Those are the rules. In 194 countries. And our country is the one that signed that agreement with a John Hancock sized signature. What happens afterward is our responsibility. Which makes it an even worse mess than most people imagine.

-- ondelette

I don't see what that "agreement" has to do with how bad or not bad the mess might or might not be or become to be. Has anyone held our feet to the fire in all this time we've been destroying the place, and breaking international rules and regulations right and left? No, so don't you maybe think everybody in the International Community might be glad to see us make the first mini step towards sanity in Iraq? Which would be our making real and concrete moves towards getting out as soon as possible.