I don't think Obama wants a return to the 12th century and instigate his own coronation. No, he was to be the Oligarch in Chief of a wealthy, capitalist United States which bestrides the narrow world like a colossus. He isn't as ambitious as you think. Neither, really, was Bush.

I only really got what they were about when I read the otherwise interesting and sometimes enlightening James Howard Kunstler talk about the invasion of Iraq. His opinion: a lot of Americans died on 9/11, and not nearly enough people died in the invasion of Afghanistan to convey the message that "you don't fuck with us, ever." So weapons of mass destruction were beside the point. For Kunstler who, at the risk of ridicule, but this must be stated, sees Arabs are untermenschen, and Israel as a wonderful "deomcracy", "the Arabs" were in need of being taught a lesson that they would never forget. Bombing, invading, torturing, and humiliating them fit the bill nicely.

One must admire his cold-blooded, amoral honesty. That his opinion is sociopathic and insane misses its appeal to millions who would never come out and say what he said. But those people surround us. And like Kunstler, they could not give a shit if innocent Arabs are tortured and killed. In fact, it serves their purpose and they know it, for it sends the message most loudly and clearly the American must be FEARED. For much of the ruling elite and the punditocracy that supports them, this point is self-evidently true. So they will soft-soap, or bury, or if forced to excuse and explain away these murders and tortures and illegal invasions, because we are great and rich and strong, and to stay that way, we must be feared.

but how about asking this to anyone and everyone who writes on this subject: in six months, if USAF and USN fliers are bombing Iran and killing its citizens, and the Iranians capture some of said fliers and waterboard the shit out of them or sting them up in ungodly positions and keep them awake for days on end to get some intel on the bombing operations, would you call what was being done to them torture?

Let the equivocating asses answer that one.

in Stalin liquidating the kulaks and Hitler marching the Jews into oblivion. I mean, it made sense to them, didn't it? Just like it makes sense to stone women to death in Saudi Arabia or crash planes into the Twin Towers.

Ah, the lame-ass postmodern defense of the indefensible brought to you under the rubric of "the truth is unknowable"

and "everyone has aright to their opinion."

And Uncle G, I'm waiting for your answer to my question.

if you want to be considered the "good guys", you don't act like the bad guys.

And save your crap about the US for the civilians of Dresden, Tokyo, and Hiroshima or the 400 dead lying in ditches at My Lai. As you can read from my post, I think Islamic fundamentalists in general, and Jihadis in particular, are immoral nutjobs and deserve to be punished to the full extent of our law for any and all breeches of the peace. If they commit terrorist acts, they must pay. But you don't flush whatever morlaity and legality you've built up over the centuries down the toilet in order to do that. To quote some of your friends, that would mean the terrorists win.

Your point seems to me a deliberate exercise in obfuscation. If I go upstairs and shoot my family, it is murder, pure and simple. The only questions would be, does he know what he is doing at the time he did it and that it was wrong to do it. If I tied up my son in stress positions and kept him awake for hours on end, I'd be torturing him. Anyone with the weakest moral compass has to know this. These actions would not be open to semantic slight-of-hand. Neither should be the actions of sober and intelligent US officials who do these things to helpless captives. If you can just throw up your hands and say about these actions, you say potayto and I say potaaato, then I fear you have no moral center at all.

I will tell you exactly what I think:

Roper: You would give the Devil benefit of law?

More: Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, if only for my own sake.

I believe in the Declaration of Independence where it says that "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their maker with cewrtain inalienable rights, among which are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

Since these enemies are people, they have rights whether they are citizens or not, simply by dint of being among "all men."

They may be my enemies, but the minute I forget that they are men with rights and the ability to reason, and that I have an obligation to act accordingly if I am to claim the title of civilized human being, I become like them and destroy myself. I act rightly not for them alone, but for me and my vision of myself as a man, a citizen, and a father. In combat, they can be killed; as prisoners, they must be treated as the law and our honor demands.

the following in Article 6:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Notice the treaties we sign, like the Geneva Convcention and the ban on torture, are "the supreme law of the land" as stated by our Founders and ratified by the States.