This is what I'm getting at. We could blow the whole thing up today and, tomorrow, be left with the same beast--just called by a different name. -- Timothy3

So we blow it up again then, if that is what it takes, and we keep blowing it up until we get it right or "better enough" and then we stay ever vigilant like we should have been this entire time and if they take it to a place we don't like we force the change again.

Listen Timmeh, I am really not in the mood for your pessimism. I dislike pessimists just as much as I dislike the Accountability Now optimists. You are both wrong and it's fucking with our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

But "what comes next" is no mystery. We've been down this path many times before. Look at how bloodthirsty and aggressive the empire is now, just barely past the peak of its affluence and power. Imagine what that same mentality will produce when it is frustrated and hungry and has its own nose bloodied ...

That is what comes next.

-- ScuzzaMan

Yeah sure... that could come next. You know what else could come next? Sweden.

The issue--the core issue--is accountability. The rest is so much window dressing. In the absence of accountability, no matter what the nomenclature of governance, you're going to have corruption. That is the nature of humans, I'm sorry to say.

-- Timothy3

Yeah? So? Are we holding them accountable now? Accountability Now is the answer to how to hold them accountable? What are you saying? You are saying nothing that we don't already know. I am not interested in debating the fall of man (and the inherent fallibility of our systems as a result) with you right now. I am interested in drawing the focus to what might force enough change to help us stop being a fundamentally evil, imperialistic empire. I am talking about forcing changes that will stop the fricking bleeding and begin the healing. Let's save the philosophical discussions for a better time if we make it to one. Deal?

I am interested in "what comes next"?

-- heru-ur

Let's just cut to the chase shall we? The short answer is:

No heru, the majority of us are never going to be in favor of no government.

Moore pleaded: "Put me out of a job!" And Olbermann shook his hand and said same for him.

-- peakdavid

Perhaps I am missing something but I think, at least in Michael Moore's case, that is a sincere attitude. I think Glenn would be ok with being out of his current job if things were to change significantly for the better. I am not ready to accuse him (though, in a fit of anger, I might have done so in the past) of being unwilling to put his ass on the line. I think he has the stones.

But the concept...what you are getting at (I think) is why I was so irritated that he signed onto Salon in the first place.

describe the system that you would have replace it. What will not become corrupted over time?

-- heru-ur

There isn't one that I can think of and it doesn't need to be replaced. It needs to be changed. It will become corrupted over time and we will have to rein it in or change it again.

Adnoto at least takes a defensible consistent position. It's the very same reason I like Glenn. Very consistent and willing to call out BS when he sees it.

-- rrheard

Thanks for the props. Do you see GG as being consistent now? I am really curious as to your thoughts. How is GG's position WRT Accountability Now either consistent with what he has written about or defensible based on the same?

but I then don't grasp why s/he is so hostile to also working within the system -- -Mona-

I am hostile to the idea because it distracts from what needs to be done. Especially when someone of Glenn Greenwald's weight and character gets behind it. If the "liberal" netroots had decided to plan, coordinate and implement a focused direct action/civil disobedience campaign and then wanted to add on some "working within the system" strategies as the ancillary, side actions that they are, everything would be peachy. But that is not what has occurred. What they want to do is make those ancillary "actions" the focus. They want to solicit funds for something that will not work. That is not a plan that will bring about change in our current climate. Not an effective one anyway and the more people like Glenn Greenwald continue on this path the more I see them as being a hindrance rather than a help.

Revolutions are vicious, unmanageable affairs, and one senses adnoto can hardly wait. So, let adnoto get the plans for bloodletting going now -- at his/her own site.

-- -Mona-

Exactly... "unmanageable." That is funny and telling.

I submit that the reason you see it that way is because you would invariably be on the wrong side of whatever revolution was occurring. Given your station in life and who you perceive yourself to be you would always choose the wrong side and, in the case of a violent revolution, would probably suffer a good deal of discomfort in a very real way.

In the case of a peaceful revolution you lose too... or think you do, so that wouldn't be very appealing to you either and thus it is understandable why you continually attempt to marginalize those who would call for one.