As I understand it, when Obama refers to "withdrawal", he's referring to the possible withdrawal of "combat troops" only.

This is commitment that is meaningless except for what it is NOT, namely, a withdrawal of the American military from Iraq and an end to the military occupation of that country.

So, if we're going to address "facts" and "truth", why not start by addressing the most misleading lie of all - that thousands upon thousands of American troops will remain in Iraq and that McCain's stated "100 years" view is likely a more honest and accurate description of reality than Obama's "withdrawal".

The real disconnect is between what it appears the American people want and what either candidate is actually promising. But this is a topic that is never discussed in polite company... -- The Reality Kid

Agreed.

Perhaps it isn't discussed in polite company but here in the rude intertubes some of us have been bringing it up. Sinnard long ago said he was going to laugh his ass off watching the left's collective head explode when they finally realized that Obama wasn't their guy. I have been saying similar things all along also. We can't help it if people are so willfully blind and delusional.

Even relatively well informed people choose to rationalize and believe what they want to believe in the face of contrary facts and evidence. They have a comfort zone and considering anything that is outside of that comfort zone produces painful cognitive dissonance. Thus we have all of the excuse making.... "Oh Obama doesn't really mean that. When he gets in office he will come around. He isn't really running to the right, that is just talk to get himself elected. He isn't the best but he is still better than the alternative." etc. etc. Seeing the situation for what it is would mean they would have to abandon their more and better democrats plan. That won't do of course. No, the combination of a President Obama and a super-duper majority of congressional democrats will save us. All they need is a few more... just a few more...

Staying in Iraq is what the American people want. It's what "the left" wants and they are going to prove that by voting for Democrats.

For the "vote and hope" / "more and better democrats" crowd.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/9/21523/34974/669/548529

Don't cry any tears for the 4th Amendment today. There is no need, remember? You are eventually going to fix it all by voting and hoping, writing and calling, and buying ads. And all from the comfort of your home office! It's all just a big dance really... the one step forward and two steps back soft-shoe of subservience.

Reality Kid -- Thought you (and perhaps others) might be interested in this one if you hadn't already seen it. Good discussion in the comments (at the bottom) too.

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/002417.html#more

I'd just like to have more LWM and less Wikipedia.

-- Derbig Mooser

A glutton for idiocy are you Derbig?

Fuck "going forward." Her version of going forward screws the people and the constitution. I don't want to go forward if what that means is to ignore recent history (current events?) in a giant cover-up because the Democrats have no balls.How can you even go forward if you don't know what you are going forward from? Fuck her. I want it shut down.

I am watching the Senate "debate" right now. Look at Rockefeller. What a traitor. Corporatist whore. Smirking, lying motherfucker. "You cannot go outside of FISA... that is made clear for the first time in this bill." WTF? Lying bastard. And it took him about one minute to bring up 9/11. 9/11 fear mongering ain't just for Republicons anymore!

Rockefeller just turned me. I am actually now hoping for McCain. The American people obviously haven't seen enough evil yet. Maybe he will open their eyes. The crash can't come soon enough. Maybe then the people will wake up and cut these cancerous traitors from our body politic.

Should a person, or me, for that matter, announce when they are leaving the comments section. Or just leave people hanging?

Since I do have to go, let me know what you come up with.

-- Derbig Mooser

Here's what I got.... fuck. you. Answer your question?

GG said...

But it's equally clear that politicians like Obama are unable within the prevailing political establishment to do much to stop the continued growth of the lawless surveillance state and our two-tiered system of justice, even if they wanted to stop it, even if they were willing to expend political capital to take a stand against it.

So you are finally acknowledging that the problem is systemic? I guess I am glad to see that. How long do you figure it will take until you to acknowledge that the "more and better democrats" plan is a steaming pile of horse-shit?

As I've said many times before, there are clear differences between an Obama and McCain presidency. Denying that is just as irrational as those for whom the only political rule is Thou Shalt Not Speak Ill of Obama.

Supreme Court justices? What other clear differences do you see? McCain wants to bomb Iran and Obama wants to talk to them first and then bomb them? McCain wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years and Obama wants to get us out of Iraq by redeploying "combat troops" while keeping 60,000 to 80,000 there for the foreseeable future? McCain will (if he shows up) vote for this "new and improved" FISA bill and so will Obama? Those differences are getting murkier and murkier. You are a smart guy. Eventually you will come around. I am not sure why it takes you so long though... perhaps it's due to the time lag between here and Brazil.

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/002417.html#more