Mr. Kamiya said: 'They drew it up like a blueprint: Grateful Iraqis would place flowers in the barrels of U.S. guns. A strong central government would take power, and democracy would flourish. The people of Iraq's neighboring states, Iran and Syria, would observe the vibrant new state and force their sclerotic regimes to reform, or they would rise up against them. The "culture of terrorism" would be ended, cut off at the source.'

Why do you persist in taking their marketing BS at face value? Those who thought up this war thought nothing of the sort. To give creedance to such tripe is to let them off the hook. I'll agree they certainly sold it that way (after reason #1, 2, & 3 were shown to be without merit).

The PNACers wanted to bust up an Arab regime that was a thorn in Israel's side. The last thing they wanted was a vibrant fully functional Arab state or states on their border.

Glenn opined on motivations: 'It is exactly like reading through the writings of Bill Kristol, Tom Friedman and every other individual who flamboyantly supported this disaster and -- motivated solely by salvaging their own reputations -- are desperate to find some method to argue that they were right.'

Personally, I think at least with the ones you mentioned above, there is another reason why they 'supported this disaster'.

Have you ever thought that deep down, maybe they don't think it has been a disaster? Sen. Lieberman (as you have so excellently shown) doesn't think it's a disaster either. He has his reasons, you know.

P.S. They're all still getting a paycheck, savaged reputations or not, correct?

Glenn responded to comments I and E_Five made with this: 'Yeah, some of them think that chaos in the Middle East is desirable. So what? The American public thinks that the Iraq war is one of the greatest disasters in our country`s history. Do you really think that the people most associated with it don't care if they end up dying like Robert McNamara -- with their reputations shattered, being widely despised, and the entire world placing huge amounts of blood on their hands?'

Glenn, IMO you pulled a GW Bush here & set up a strawman for yourself to knock down. The strawman in this case being 'The American public thinks that the Iraq war is one of the greatest disasters in our country`s history.'

Unfortunately that is not true. You think it has been, I think it has been & 50 to 60% of the American people think so too. That, however, still leaves 40% who don't. What portion of the populace do you think our Versailles courtiers socialize with? Who pays their salaries (certainly not the people who think the Iraq war has been 'one of the greatest disasters in our country's history')?

I was bein coy in my previous post. I will not be here. The people I referenced are all fervid supporters of Israel. They feel, maybe due to religious pressure, a duty to help Israel & they all think the war has been beneficial for Israel. I think, in the short-term, it has been beneficial for Israel (at least that portion of Israel who doesn't want any kind of viable peace & settlement of the Palestinian situation).

Unlike Mr. McNamara, who could not escape the 95% of the population who felt Vietnam was a horror, these people will always have their cheerleaders & suckups. They certainly don't think they will end up like Mr. McNamara (why would they continue upping this debacle if they thought they would).

I know you are not naive, maybe it's worse than you fear.

I haven't had a chance to read an unbiased account of what Shooter 'reported' up above, but if Sen. Obama did mention theoretically having to go into Pakistan, it is because he wants Osama Bin Laden's head on a stick.

That's just what I want too. I think the POS is in Pakistan somewhere & I could see some situations where we might be forced to press on in to a portion of Pakistan that borders Afganistan. I'm sure many other options would be exhausted (by Pres. Obama) before we were forced to do that.

Get the hell out of Iraq & go get Osama!

Guys, I understand where you're coming from. Certainly the Bushies would only get us embroiled in some kind of crazy land war in Asia if THEY went into Pakistan.

I was talking hypothetically about how an Obama administration might be forced to act. I can assure you it would be done with ever so much more restraint & sophistication than Pres. Batshit Bananas & his merry band of fuckups.

However, you should never lose sight of the fact that Osama Bin Laden murdered close to 3,000 people(almost all civilians, and a bunch of children) & he MUST be brought to justice.

If you are saying that we might know for sure where he is in Pakistan, know that Pakistan knows where he is & does nothing about it, and then say we should never go get him if they refuse to get him themselves, then you are wrong, IMO.

We should certainly give the Pakistan government every opportunity to do the right thing & get him themselves, before contemplating doing it ourselves (the last resort, if you will).