Gwool:

You prove the point Mr. Rosenberg, with your own rhetoric

Rosenberg: YAWWN!

Well-modulated lies are lies, nonetheless. The right is expected to be in ballistic mode 24/7. But the tiniest bit of spunk on the left, in the comment section of a blog, and it's call-out-the-hounds time.

Bored now.

Gwool:

Rosenberg: Got it? Dems are upset with their own leadership for not standing up to Bush.

Gwoo:

NO. That would be that the far left is upset with the leadership for not wanting to go further. Democrat and Republican activists are not mainstream by a long shot. That's the whole Rovian strategy. To hell with the center.

Again, the numbers Glenn posted show that this is not true. The poll number breakdowns by party are not polls of party activists. You are as bad as Bush with Iraq WMDs when it comes to ignoring evidence you don't like.

Gwool:

There was the intersting disconnect in the public mood that said it wanted to get out of Iraq but it did not want funding cut off.

That's because the GOP and media framed it as if cutting off the funding meant leaving troops in the field with nothing to fight with. It was patently absurd. But, again, the Democratic leadership failed to stand up to it.

There's no point responding to anything else you've written, until you actually deal with the cold hard facts that Glenn presented in his original post.

It's simply a waste of time to argue with folks who ignore facts that are staring them in the face. It makes little difference where they claim to reside on the political spectrum. Blindness is blindness is blindness.

willbhuman:

Paul R

The country wants out of Iraq. The Dem leadership is unwilling to force what the country wants. They are to the right of the country.

And this sort of thinking also serves to divide the precise alliances that ought to exist in pursuing the broad goals listed above. It also is stark evidence that the framing offered by the very people we all seem to claim as natural opponents is accepted without question....

To suggest that support for the war is a position that is of the "right" and that opposition is of the "left" is needlessly divisive, wrong and counter-productive. And, as I mentioned, it embraces the bullshit frames offered by Those Who We'd Rather Not Name.

(1) On the most nitty-gritty empirical level, it's simply a matter of fact that support for the war is about as strongly correlated with rightwing politics as anything one could possibly find. For example (from pollingreport.com):

CBS News. June 26-28, 2007. N=836 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation with Iraq?"

. . . . . . % Approve Disapprove Unsure

ALL adults . . . 23 . . . . . 70 . . . . . . . 7

Republicans . . 59 . . . . . 33 . . . . . . . 8

Democrats . . . . 5 . . . . . 90 . . . . . . . 5

Independents . 17 . . . . . 75 . . . . . . . 8

The figures speak for themselves.

(2) On the more general level of political ideology as a whole, war is the very essence of rightwing ideology. Look at rightwing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation. Look at the kinds of things people who hold these views agree with. They quite readily lead to war when properly primed. It is quite strightforward.

(3) It is the conservative leaders who relentlessly try to divide people. See, for example, my earlier comment about ordinary conservatives' support for the welfare state. Conservative leaders demonize liberals, so that their followers won't realize that they share more in common with liberals than they do with their leadership. When support for front-burner conservative folly is at an historic low is precisely when we ought to be stuffing the right/left divide down their throats.

(4) The bullshit frames come from those who present "the left" as having nothing to do with the actual historical role and positions of the left. It was the left that brought us virtually everything that's cherished as "American." Everyhthing from the Magna Charta, to the English Bill of Rights on forward falls into the same pattern. What conservatives of one generation cherish as their heritage, their grandparents (sometimes even parent) fought against with every ounce of their strength.

Fifty years from now, conservatives will proudly claim their heritage of supporting gay marriage. I don't have a problem with that, so long as they don't hold any political power, and everyone laughs in their faces.