@sonoffloud, I liked Bill Clinton, too. He wasn't running for office, his name was not on the ballot, I might have voted for him again, but maybe not, he was initially supportive of the war with Iraq, like his wife.

My husband doesn't get to assume all of my qualifications, talents and flaws, I don't get to assume his.

@AKA, I never thought he was qualified Well, bully for you. Hillary and Obama, both smart lawyers, both married to strong opinionated lawyers, both first term Senators from blue states, both interested in local politics from college on. Their qualifications seem pretty darn similar. I think both Hillary and Obama are/were qualified.

Also, as for the over the top, freaky anti-Clinton supposedly pro-Obama supporters that now have "disappeared"? Did you consider that for the most part, Operation Chaos is now over? It was in the R's interest to drag out the fight and make it as ugly as possible, for both sides. As always, the R's are pretty successful at that type of thing.

Along with disaffected Clinton supporters, there are a few fake Clinton supporters (R-trolls) here on Salon's message board, too. You can spot them when they have to rush to defend Reagan, or have to immigrant bash or actually do spout racist crap.

@doloresflower, nice try and good points/post, it seems to be like banging your head against the wall though with some.

According to wiki (I know, I know), AFA has some anti-semitism issues

Anti-Semitism

Donald Wildmon has been denounced by major Jewish organizations, such as the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Congress. Media Matters has stated the AFA Journal "has long served as a platform for anti-Semitic theories and innuendo."[80] In AFA publications and in interviews, Wildmon has stated that he blames Jews for "profane" television programming, stating that the television industry is controlled by Jews and that they push an anti-family agenda through television programs featuring "immoral" behavior.

Wildmon has stated that he believes obscene content on television and in movies is a result of the media being controlled by Jews, who intentionally place anti-Christian messages and activities into their programming to undermine Christianity.[81][82][83] Wildmon further characterizes Jews as more supportive of homosexuals than "average" Americans.[80]

Media Matters claimed an article in the March 2005 issue of AFA's Journal insinuated that raising children as Jews would lead to criminal lifestyles, and that it required a conversion to Christianity in order to make them productive members of society.[80][84] The Journal also sells The McGuffey Readers, a series of children's books aimed at promoting Christianity to children, and which also claim that Jews are "superstitious" and have been rejected by God for being unfaithful to him.[85][86]

I stand by my statement that Ivin's may not even have been the subscriber to the magazine, his wife might have. She was the one that was very "pro-life".

The donations were all given in the 90's, that's when the AFA's main crusade was nasty rap lyrics, and many people were swept up in that.

And with obama, it's all about the ego.

Yeah, because only humble, unassuming, unambitious, modest folks ever aspire to be President.

I find this argument as silly as trying to smear Hillary as "ambitious"...like it was a bad thing.

Big egos and ambition are both required by any that aspire that high.

Nobody ever accused the Big Dog of not having an ego, either. And he had it BEFORE he was President.

As for racism, we haven't seen anything yet. I saw a "funny" Obama joke email the other day that was being circulated by a wingnut family member and it wasn't ambiguous at all, it was racist and insulting.

The same would have been true with sexism had Hillary gotten the nod.

We wouldn't be having to argue intent at all, it would slap you in the face.

*********

@AnaHadWolves Although I will vote for him, I don't expect him to win. That will clear the way for Hillary in '12.

If McCain wins this, God knows what Hillary would get to inherit.

A "preemptive" war with Iran might really change things in the USA. When a dirt poor, war ravaged country like Afghanistan and a long embargoed, war ravaged, weakened country like Iraq can tie us up and keep us trapped, I cringe to think what a country with some resources to fight back might be like. And don't say McCain would need congressional approval...that was already given.

I used to listen to Howard Stern sometimes and he used to read the appeals for funds from the AFA for whatever stupid thing Stern had last said. I daresay there were people around the country that clutched their pearls and then donated to try and keep Stern's "filth" off the air. They weren't all anti-semites, gay bashers, weirdos, more likely suckers getting their pockets picked.

The same was very true of the AFA's appeals to help fight the lyrics in some rap music. Some lyrics could get all sorts of people riled up and offended. The AFA (and Wildmon) profited from this.

Let's just agree to disagree on how we read Ivin's letters and emails. I really view them differently than you do.

p.s. My grandmother who kind of liked Reagan except for the fact that he was way too liberal subscribed me up to get the John Birch magazine (I forget the name) a gazillion years ago. I got the thing for years and at first found it amusing and eventually scary. I wonder how that would look if it was being used to define my upbringing or views.