Truly my last post on this subject....

Tina, if you think you have been civil on this thread, you are mistaken. You have been rude, unjust and over the top.

I get that you see sex as an act of love, spiritual, transcending the body, sacred, whatever. That's great, but that's you. Not every man and woman would agree...for some it is physical, they have different wants, needs. That's why there are members of BOTH sexes that are extremely promiscuous...and it's root is not always abuse or self esteem.

Not every woman that has sex for money is a "victim". I used as a case some of the women at the restaurant/bar below my office. There's an old, drunk rich guy sitting there, 3 very attractive women are hanging on his every slurred word, fawning over him. I have a hard time seeing him as necessarily abusive and/or seeing the women as innocent victims of his wealth and "power". There using him and he's an idiot for not seeing it, and yes, I think they were pros.

As for the strawman of employment agencies, career counseling, etc. Right now it IS legal for men and women to become strippers, to be in porn, to be "swimsuit" models at a night club, topless waitress, you name it. I don't see any kids being counseled to go after these LEGAL jobs, do you? Let alone teens told they need to practice for these jobs. I don't see unemployment telling a woman (or man..you always leave them out) that they aren't eligble for unemployment because they refused to interview for the the new movie "Talia & Joe do the city of Dallas". It doesn't happen...and that's a LEGAL job.

As for Voice of Reason....of course I don't want my kids, or grandkids, becoming prostitutes, strippers, porn stars, be promiscuous, have an abortion, be a pot head, be an alcoholic, self destructive, to become an actor on Jackass, etc. But, if they did make that choice, I would hope and pray that their lives would not be ruined by not only by their actions, but by being arrested, let alone imprisoned, for doing something I don't agree with because someone wanted to "protect" them from themselves.

Good night.

It's good to see some fight left in them.

Even if Elephantman is correct on the whole "veto" thing, that goes to show you that the Pres. and R's really don't give a damn about their act, that it's expiration is no big deal.

I suspect the only thing that has been keeping us out of a severe recession (depression?) for several years now is the huge federal deficit.

That's true for your average American family, too. The only reason that the middle class has been feeling so confident, is they had plenty of money to spend from their ATM homes. Many did not see this as "debt".

The consumer has kept the US economy propped up through massive debt, too.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

As long as they are the ones that get to stay in power, be part of the elite, that's the most important thing of all.

Getting things done correctly, that's not as important, especially if it is done by others.

Yes, I am enthusiastic about Obama, but it’s not because I think he can do no wrong. It’s not even because, as a progressive liberal, I think he’s going to be as liberal as I am in what he attempts to do as a leader. I’m even willing to say I’m pretty sure I’m going to disagree with some of the things he says or does.

Thanks, TRenee, well put. The Clinton supporters that constantly make fun of Obama support as messiah worshippers seem to be missing the point and are very alienating...and most of the Hillary supporters here are NOT trolls. (with the exception of a certain bomb throwing revolutionary who claims to like Hillary, see other threads)

Like you, I was neither a Clinton or Obama supporter, but would have been pretty happy to "settle" for either (over ANY Republican) after my preferred candidate, Edwards, couldn't make it. Frankly, I thought the entire Democratic field running was an interesting, strong mix and had me excited and revved up for the first time in ages. I was finally energized.

I had misgivings about Obama, but have slowly been won over, but that has been very much at the expense of Hillary, and mainly because of her. Damn, I used to respect her, her intelligence, her courage, her spunk. I saw her stand up to RW protesters during a speech in Seattle in the 90's over her healthcare ideas and really admired her.

She's lost me completely lately, as has her husband. Her 3AM nonsense and praise for McCain finally tipped the scales...and that was before the whole Wright nonsense. BTW, let's make all Catholics disavow any comments from their infallible popes in the last 100 years, oh wait, that would be silly...

I do not believe in the Machievillian principle, it DOES matter how you play and as someone who came in pretty happy with both candidates, she's the one who has repeatedly crossed the line and has even managed to discourage and sometimes even disgust me.

BTW, AKA, you and I see eye to eye on most issues, but you mocking Obama as a delicate orchid does you no favors. I don't like bullshit thrown at Hillary (Vince Foster, etc.) nor at Obama. What do you think Bill would have said if it had been suggested 6 months ago that Hillary should wait another 8 years, that would be her "turn", would he have been "sure, she's got tons of time, she'll try, try again if it takes 100 years" or would he more likely have said, "No, now's the time". If you don't say "It's now or never" you are already conceding defeat and only a foolish spouse would do that.