Damn fine question you ask. I ask it of myself often. I think it has to do with overall image. Here, in story form, is what I used to think was the difference between conservatives and liberals.

A man comes to the door and says "I'm from the government and I'm here to help!"

In most cases, a conservative steps outside scowling and tries to figure out what the best defense is.

In most cases the liberal invites the man in for tea.

These days, sadly, the man from the government is likely coming with a no knock warrant and the citizen is promptly killed.

Or perhaps it is that I see things as Tom Paine did - Government is by its nature evil and that cannot be changed. Government is, however, a very necessary evil.

Overall. I'm fiscal conservative/libertarian. Kinda knocks me from both political parties but with a vestigial RNC card.

"who is running the government these days?" Neocons and fundies. I try very hard to educate conservatives that they are different and that it is OK to disagree with the right wing pundits. It takes calm, continuous pressure reminding them what conservative used to mean.

"cite Manzanar, Ruby Ridge, or Waco ... Elian Gonzales". Exactly. These are some of the things (add COPA, DMCA, CESA, ...) that showed how little regard the clinton administration had for civil rights. (Google "site:salon.com davidian" for some eye openers). Who could have dreamed, back in y2k, the horror that awaited in the mind of a republican administration.

Based on these forums, I've come to believe that our top concern next election should not be issues but should be restoring our country to "american democracy". It would be nice to argue about the text of the amendments instead of the validity of the bill of rights.

Ahhh, dinner time, later Herr Timberman. (You'll never convince me that I'm liberal. Too wary. To frightened)

Thanks for the GOP faction break down. I'll cogitate on a dem one and pounce with it in the future.

As for what is frivolous spending, how's about an Alaskan bridge to nowhere? (oops). How's about abstinence programs. (oops again). How about putting burkas on sexy statues (damn). Hmmm.... How about the war on drugs and filling newly built prisons with people who should be treated (semi expensive) instead of incarcerated (damn expensive). Aha! Got a clinton era one. Too bad bush magnified it.

Therein lies the problem with referring to the decider and the decidees (a new band, plays armpit polkas) as conservatives. They aren't. Liberal journos would do well by referring to them as tax and spend twice republicans. Maybe someone more clever than I can come up with a snappier label. Tossers? Nah. accurate but not evocative.

Yes, I understood the Elian inclusion. I still don't know what the right outcome was. With his father in cuba or free in the US. Dual citizen until 18 makes sense to me. What I do know is that Reno's storm troopers could have handled things better. Then again, reno wasn't shy about dropping the hammer on anyone.

So, how can a conservative support family values and refuse to return a child to his only remaining parent? Easy. That is mostly a fundie issue. Elian was already born, so they were free to hate him. The other factions were more concerned with that filthy immigrant or larval commie.

Regardless, the main point of your last post was GOP hypocrisy. You can't expect a harmonious chorus from so many disparate voices. Neocons care nothing for family values, but the fundies claim to. Fundies sing "A joy to be Simple" while the neocons create layers of deception. bushies feel patriotic as they string concertina wire around free speech zones. The delusions are astounding.

What made liberal the outcomes of those law enforcement over reactions you mentioned? They weren't, but they sure as hell were democrat. The administration was not very interested in figuring out exactly what went wrong, or right. They supplied cover and made it go away. Just the same, is gitmo conservative? No way, but it sure is republican.

As for the black panthers (and weathermen, and kent state, and ...) you're correct. Why the hell didn't that generation of conservatives scream. The enemy of my enemy is my friend? Geez, with that thinking bush v. bin laden puts most of us into a recursive funk.

I know, putting students in the same category as violent felons is not entirely fair. I grouped them based on the amount of collateral damage and civil rights abuse involved in countering them.

is that mythical? like unicorns and war mongering isolationists?

I'm not going anywhere. I've been reading salon since the old days ('96? '97?). Salon didn't treat clinton with kid gloves. I don't think it'll treat a future dem president kindly either. It's all about calling out the naked emperor.

I love salon.

Just please, on my crazy pissy days, tell me to take a valium and fuck off.

"Is there something I'm missing here?"

check:

archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/07/06/waco/index.html

www.salon.com/april97/waco970418.html

We've reached an impasse on the main koresh issue. In a role reversal skit, the right wing argues for restraint and containment while the left wing argues for armed response and a harsh application of the law.

One reason for the impasse is that so few people know what really happened there. Many believe there was a cover up.

Scooter got convicted for his part in a coverup.

Clinton got impeached for his part in a coverup.

Martha Stewart ....

There appears to have been a whitewash of the events at waco. Regardless of how righteously LE served legal warrants and how the davidians deserved to die for their criminality, differences or intractability - will we ever know the facts?

If there was a cover up, who's responsible? LE, reno, the then commander in chief? Why was ken starr wasted on a blowjob?