Men do mature and are mostly different at 35 than they were at 25.

Problem is that women at 35 have been dealing with men for 15 years and are much more cynical and distrustful of men - just when men are starting to get ready for a meaningful relationship. The universe is a cruel joker.

I believe we are in a far more superficial atmosphere than say 30 years ago. Being hawt seems to be the highest achievement that young women (and those older) are told to strive for. Men expect hawt behavior as well as looks. Breast implants are the biggest optional surgery for a reason - and forget women saying they are doing it "for themselves" - no one gets optional painful modification surgery if they feel nothing is wrong with them. Young women do not know how to 'be' because culture is really over sexualized. Young men expect much more service from young women because their culture is telling them it is reasonably expected.

It is really sad.

It is not saying that sex is bad, or lust, or pursuing each other either. It is not saying that men are dogs and women are golddiggers. It is just sad that we have such a narrow definition of what attractive is - especially when it comes to women. Even the less attractive have something that is beautiful about them - even the beauty has a flaw. But we are being conditioned to see and grade the flaws. And men seem particularly comfortable in pointing out the flaws.

I don't think it is just the very beautiful or the very not, who can see the superficiality. I think the recent poster sees it - not because she is at the beautiful end of the spectrum - but because she is self aware. I think people who are self aware and observant are those who see this total enslavement of men in the face of a pretty female. Men DO do stupid things - even men with attractive and loving girlfriends/wives. Even men with daughters.

I've watched this.

Men bitch and complain about women using them and being superficial and then when faced with a self consciously "pretty" woman who knows how to work men - these men just hand it over! Education does not matter. Nor social class. Wierd. And those of us observing this do develop a cynical opinion of men.

Lots of people want to state that women are jealous of beautiful women and that is why they critisize them. That really is wrong and is only said to silence women from stating a critism. I love the idea of the power of beauty (both genders) but I dislike the manipulation that is sometimes done with it. Mostly because it seems to make men stupid and then give a confirmation to my cynical side. Men seem incapable of seeing through it until they start making child support payments.

Men use women. Women use men. Unfortunately. But there are a whole lot of us caught in the crossfire wishing we could find Swizerland.

@Asehpe

AKA is right - it is very harmful when women hear men disect other women, or themselves. I read your post and realise you may not interpret AKA's post the way I do.

I've experienced the segmenting. Even when men aren't doing it to be mean, it is not really positive. It is not "you have beautiful legs", or "I love your walk" or "you have a wonderful curve to your breasts" - these would all be lovely things to hear from someone you care about. The type of segmentation that leads to feeling good about yourself.

What is usually said is "your tits are too small, but I like your ass"

This type of segmentation drives women nuts. I mean, hearing your butt is attractive to a boyfriend - that is good. But your breasts are considered substandard. And next time sex is engaged, long after the man has forgotten his words, the woman is remembering them, especially when being fondled. Does NOT lead to free and unselfconscious sex!

This is (I believe) why AKA said that men should never makes these segmentation and judgement statement to women they want to want them. It is that kind of segmentation that happens more often than not. In part due to some of the laddie mags (Playboy and Maxim were mentioned and I second that) which seem to emphasize and normalize the disection and grading.

Does that make sense?

And Delany - I remember some of those books decades (!) after reading them. Dhalgren was one of the first read, and I remember it being one of the stranger books I had read up to that point. Now I want to reread it and see how it reads after I have some life under my belt. I know I didn't understand some of it then - but was transported to this strange wonderous city.