I'm not a doctor. Do you always assume that these cute handles we go by online have something to do with our jobs? If so, you'd better change yours.

And for the sake of argument, how do you know that a, say, 8 month old fetus can't suffer? Really. PROVE it to me. You ever talk to an ardent pro-life supporter? It's JUST like talking to you about animals.

Because you can't prove it. You've just decided that that's the case because it supports your own personal ethics. What you do is what everyone else on the planet does to get by in everyday life--make an arbitrary and pragmatic judgement based on one's own culture or chosen peer group.

"you are either the perpetrator or the victim of propaganada lies"

No, this is just a thought experiment for me. "Devil's advocate" if you will. Lighten up.

I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread, but the racism and cultural chauvanism here is overpowering. We've had a person say they'd like to see a "dog killer" butchered. We've had multiple people say that the Chinese are "barbarians." This coming from a country with factory farm animal abuse and Guantanamo Bay hidden in its backyard. And a country that invaded another "pre-emptively."

Yet more people coming along and calling the Chinese barbaric. Making stereotypical judgements based on the anecdotal rhetoric of a few activists and writers. OOOH, those CHINESE don't have ANY respect for human life!

If you want to purify yourself, you're going to have to do a lot more than eating only locally grown food and boycotting Chinese products. You'd have to stop paying taxes to a gov't that invaded another country in a pre-emptive war. And that violates the Geneva convention with torture. By those standards, the world should boycott US from hosting any Olympics. And stop buying all of our imports.

What, you protest? YOU'RE not one of those evil Americans who supports torture and animal abuse? Don't appreciate being stereotyped and lumped in with those bad neighbers you dissociate yourself from? Too bad. It kind of sucks to be painted with a simplistic stroke of a broad brush, doesn't it?

As someone who had the insult "dog-eater" thrown his way many times growing up, I shouldn't be surprised by this rampant xenophobia, even coming from people who are supposedly closer to my side politically. But it does still surprise me. I guess China is destined to be the next big foreign boogie man, up there with those "A-rabs."

I never understand what world these anti-TV elitists live in. There's a few nuggets of intelligence buried in the trash: Mad Men, Rome, Deadwood, Battlestar, even on the big networks there are smart comedies like The Office and 30 Rock, and Lost. You can dispute those individual preferences, but here's another point:

Television as a medium is not inferior to any other form of mass media in and of itself. I'd argue that the Sopranos was a greater achievement than the Godfather trilogy. And if you're reading The Secret or John Grisham, I'd say your taste isn't smarter or better than someone who watches Six Feet Under (for example--there are a lot of others you could choose). And how is reading blogs and Salon and watching YouTube all day superior to TV? And I'm also not saying that TV is superior to other media--it's just one choice in a broad spectrum of choices, each offering it's particular strength and weakness.

Forgot to mention the most novelistic and literary show on television: The Wire. Sheer, objective brilliance. And contrary to the HBO slogan, it's television.

This thread will get ugly. From all sides.

Hey pipe, you need to learn some indie rock history before you declare that REM didn't sound "alternative." Hell, even the word "alternative" came years after REM's early 80's reign as college rock kings.

Waaaay back when Murmur first hit, REM's word of mouth buzz and mysterious nocturnal moods set them apart from the pack, and they definitely spawned hundreds of followers--do you need any other proof that they were just as influential as the Pixies (who I also love). Throwing Muses were great but Hersh is a unique mutant, not the founder of an entire genre.

Keep in mind that this is good natured music nerd ribbing--but you didn't just suggest that Document was a better album than Out of Time, did you?

Forced to make a choice, I'll still go with the "mysterious" early period, Murmur and Fables as the my own personal REM faves.

They spent the years after Fables struggling with potential large scale success, and getting mixed results. Lifes Rich Pageant *sounded* more expensive, but they'd lost that gauzy quality that marked their formative years. Document was front loaded with some great songs, but falls apart in the second half. Green was OK, but Out of Time was where they truly hit their stride as a mainstream pop band, and they got even better with Automatic for the People.

Monster was a low point, though.

Oh, and Camper Van Beethoven had already rendered Cracker irrevelant. What, did David Lowery need money for a new boat or something?;)

Yes, that cover was tasteless. Very "Smell the Glove," but without the irony. But the Scorpions did record some great metal songs--and I'd just like to point out that snarking about how dumb metal can be is to deny some of its appeal and, dare I say it, its artistic worth.