that's cool with me. Like I said, there's no homeschooling in Europe. I lived 5 years in Germany and there really is a push to create a little Turkistan right inside the country. Several Imams held a meeting in Rostock with the neo-Nazis, in fact. Weird, you're saying? Don't the skinheads attack the foreigners? Yes, but you're forgetting what they have in common--the anti-Jewish element. And that's what the meeting was mostly about, to trash Israel.

The Germans got scared as fuck over that meeting of minds and I don't blame them. Basically extreme right wingers finding their common ground! Of course they don't want to feed that cancer in their society. Neither do the Spaniards.

It goes down this way: if you have a daughter she has to attend school. If you are so radical that you would deny a child an education in order to keep her hair covered, then maybe you better reconsider the wisdom of your decision to come to Europe to live.

Hell, if the fundies didn't come it would be a good thing all round. If you don't want to actually live with the Satanic Westerners or if you want to hold cozy meetings with the fascist elements among them and otherwise undermine the very society you're sucking off from--STAY THE HELL HOME.

So yes, it would create openmindedness one way or another, either by making people change or making the people who are incapable of change move away.

Normally I'm about 75% there and with you, man, but this time....what ARE you getting at?

BTW Turks in Germany cannot vote because almost none of them become citizens. There's a myth that German citizenship is almost impossible to attain; but it's just that, a myth. In reality the wait isn't much longer than it is for the American citizenship. It's true that in Germany, unlike in America, citizenship is not conferred upon birth. Hence the third generation Turks who are not German citizens.

They don't become citizens because they want to remain citizens of Turkey. Like Mexicans in the States, they commute frequently and send much of their income "home". They are not interested in Germany or anything to do with it. Their loyalties lie elsewhere. That's creating some problems.

If Turks had the vote and were particpating in German society in some other way than meeting with the neo-Nazis to talk about how bad it was that Hitler didn't finish off the Jews, there might be fewer problems, in fact.

So, yes, I'm a big fan of democracy, but democracy means the majority rules, and I think the majority in multiple European countries have made it clear that they do not want to undergo Islamization from within.

Germans don't care squat about the American vision of the melting pot or the cultural rainbow or mosaic or salad. Is this right? Is this wrong? Who knows? But democracy in practice sort of underscores our point; it doesn't refute it.

I would also point out that Turks in Germany, especially the Kurdish groups enjoy many more rights and freedoms in Germany than they have in Turkey, which is basically run behind the curtain by the military. I think it's sad, as do Germans, that they exploit these freedoms with the intent of undermining them.

Look, by calling people baboons, are you helping to raise the bar of discussion to your own apparently sterling standard?

Decry the lack of civility, and then call everybody baboons.

You sort of shot yourself in the foot there, pardner.

If your only point is to say that internet discussion boards are futile as agents of change---well, fine, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

Or are you just so darn mad that you'll throw any old thing out there? Like:

Talking about this is futile! Stop, damn you, stop!

Well, who cares if internet chatter isn't actually going to change anything in Spain or Germany? (and thank God it doesn't!) Does that mean it cannot be spoken of?

I think you're just trying to shut us up. And that stuff about Algeria? Quite off-topic.

It's late in Canada. Get some sleep.

I will have to stand corrected; apparently, Spain joins Great Britain among the countries on the other side of the pond which allows home schooling.

So apparently this could also be an option, albeit an even sadder one for the girls.

strangely enough the state of Idaho did not see it as child abuse. The case law comes from the Jehovah's Witnesses and their refusal of blood transfusions based on their beliefs. The JWs have let children die of this, too, and a doctor can get into big trouble going against the wishes of the parents.

The trouble is, the child cannot choose. The child may, even at the time, want nothing to do with JW or fundie beliefs. But they have to die for those beliefs, a direct violation of their personhood.

I grew up wearing goofy religious clothing, enforced by parents and church, and while, no, it didn't kill me, it does cause a lot of harm, including a shame based body image--so I would argue "hurt" is a relative term--I do think being forced to develop that shame hurts a girl in her formative years. And I think psychological harm is as serious as physical harm.

And if I had my way I would do away with home schooling in a heartbeat, too. The way it is practiced in the States it is often a cover for both kinds of abuse.