I used to like Salt n Pepa back in the day. Whatta Man is still not a bad song! But yes, we should know better than to check back on the thread--fatal, that is, and a time waster to boot. Does anybody get convinced of anything or change their minds on these forums?

Timbuktom, yes, I am in fact from Michigan *sigh*

If I didn't know you, I probably know one of your clones. Their name is legion. I am certain I do not currently know you, nor want to.

Anyway I left Michigan years and years ago.

should read, If I didn't know you, I probably knew....

that's better.

It's like Satan and the free will question, people.

What's the use of free will if you can't use it to do evil also?

What's the use of personal choice if fundie whackjobs can't use it to fuck with the heads of their children, effectively abusing them by raising them in a fear and shame based environment?

How dare anyone take a position on this, asking that kids see/experience a different environment for even a few hours a day?

Defend personal choice! Let dads force their daughters to wear a hood over their heads and keep their eyes down. You go, people. You've got your priorities straight.

If we were talking about grown women, now, it would be somewhat different, as the girl below wrote, she decided to wear it for a few years when she was 23...I think it was better not to interfere with that, although she did seem to have a family who was not in the habit, so to speak (no pun intended).

But we are talking about kids.

I believe the truant officer would have something to say if the girls were kept out of school. Also, no homeschooling in Europe (Britain excepted), and the law requires that you be in school.

From what I gather, parochial schools would be exempt from this ban as it only applies to the public schools. So if you really wanted to put your teenage daughter through this, you better be prepared to pony up for a private education.

Sounds fair to me.

Do kids count as people?

Just curious, its apparently an actual legal question.

Some fundie fuckheads out in Idaho, I believe, who were of some strain of "Christianity" that allows no medical intervention, allowed their daughter to die an almost spectacularly slow, painful death due to an impacted bowel. The girl that died was the cousin of a college friend of mine, and the description of the death was awful. And basically all she needed was a very minor trip to the hospital.

Two other "parents" in a completely separate case allowed two of their diabetic children to die, again slowly and painfully over time.

The parents of the diabetic children were arrested, the parents of the 14 year old never. However, because of the "religious freedom" issue and the same-as-the-family-pet legal standing of children, none of these people were convicted of a crime. If you're not beating them to death, you basically do what you want with your kids.

I'm sorry, where kids are involved I am not militant about protecting religious freedom. I think the rights of the child trump the right of the parents to inflict pain and abuse on that child in the name of whatever sky guy they follow.

There is a U.N. charter for the International Rights of the Child and it should be ratified by every country and followed and enforced as much as possible.

Kids shouldn't have to pay for their parents' beliefs.

That said, of course the whole head scarf ban is xenophobic and originates with conservatives, yada, yada, yada. I just don't care about supporting a father's right to force his daughter to dress a certain way based on his religion. I think that is child abuse.

Yes, a girl can rip her hijab off out of sight of her brothers and father. And as we have seen, they can be killed for that (the case in Canada is by far not the first or only one; it became famous basically because of some nebulous demand that "mainstream" Muslims "condemn" the killing--ummmm...).

I like Thelma's suggestion that schools be declared oppression free zones. After all, if the faithful really feel their ideas are so great, then their children, who are indoctrinated at all other times, ought to be able to withstand a few hours a day being exposed to different viewpoints. If your whole religion is going to crumble in the next generation's eyes just because of school, maybe your beliefs aren't so wonderful to begin with.

I would add to the schools different services to help and counsel children who are being abused/coerced by their parents in ways that fall short of their needing to be removed from the home. When I got out, I was without an anchor and something like that would have really helped me make my way. Kids raised by fundies (of any stripe) need serious help being reintegrated into society; dealing with going to places where people are drinking, for example, or holding down a job. Usually they need help setting boundaries because fundie cults really violate the healthy inclinations for privacy and respect of self. Schools could be such a safe zone for kids in those situations.

Just some thoughts.