um...so anything anyone says about Islam that is negative is per se racist even though race has never once been brought up, just because you said so?

Only when we praise Islam to the skies without ever questioning any of it, and accept the alarmists' claim to perpetual victimhood even when they are very clearly exaggerating their case, can we claim our not-racist credentials, as handed out by you?

You know what? Stuff it. You're one of those people who see racism everywhere, even where it's not, and you're right, there's probably no point in talking about it.

And I'll stand by what I said about India. I've spent a bit of time in India. Have you?

Muslim terrorism has killed a hell of a lot more Hindus in India than Hindu rioting has killed Muslims. But I see the North American Islamic spin machine has done its job well and now, somehow, the Muslims in India are the victims. That's just too fucking rich, really.

Why don't you people save some of your anger for what's happening to the Palestinian people because that is a real travesty of justice going on there. Can we manage to agree on that?

fascinating read.

what's your take on Christian H?

Am I doing a good job of serving my imperialist masters? Where's that double-sided light sabre of mine? Not to mention my hood?

My imperialist masters are calling. Gotta go......

now we are getting down to the nitty gritty.

"We" are ordering "them" to take a position we approve of, and doing that may be, as Christian suggested, a discriminatory position to start with--although I disagree strongly with his other points.

In practical terms of course Muslims can do little besides distance themselves verbally from the murder. This is esp. true in light of that lack of central religious authority we were talking about earlier.

That said, we still have here a belief which makes no distinction between religion and the state, and the state/religious law states that women are to be killed for impurity. That, in my mind, makes it harder for Muslims to really crack down on honor killings, since their own system of law says this is a crime punishable by death!

So what's enough? In my mind, it will be enough when the doctrine of Q'uranic immutablity is challenged in the Muslim community. That will be it. The moment. When a Muslim finally says, "The Q'uran was written by men, and we do not have to follow all these rules--literally thousands of them--to the letter. There may be flaws. There may be mistakes. We have to use our reason to follow our religion. We can have secular law and still be good Muslims. We can accept scientific theories that contradict the Q'uran and still be good Muslims. We can have unconstricted, free personal and sexual relationships without giving up the good things in Islam".

It will happen. It is happening. The cracks are appearing. Non-Muslims cannot force this issue, however. It's not our battle.

Christianity had to come to this point in order to survive alongside secular humanistic thought. Islam has to come to this point, too.

It's getting late, hope I am still making sense. Thanks for bearing with me so long.