I'm not sure what a "concern troll" is either, but I'll take it as a negative...

there's a way to balance Rooth's and Mike M.'s horrific experiences (Rooth having had a horrible hospital birth and Mike having known a home birth gone wrong).

The danger of vaccinations is beside the point, Rooth, and doesn't have anything to do with home birthing.

Hospital birthing rooms have been around for more than twenty years now. What's wrong with them? I had a lovely one in Munich, Germany that had a birthing chair and a hot tub. The doctor didn't show up until the day after the baby was born. The nurse delivered, and the on-duty doctor filled out the checklist.

My first birth was in Canada; not so good--labored in the semi-private ward in vain until the wee hours and the doctor made the decision to suction, which carries risks but is better than asphysxiation.

Generally, the greater the intervention, the greater the cost--so countries with socialized health care are loath to overdo it with healthy women. Also, awareness about the true negative consequences of C-sections continues to grow.

I've never given birth in the States--so maybe the hospitals are that much worse here? Dunno; it seems most of them have some birthing room--most people I know have some options. I'm worried, really, that it's a money issue at the bottom--it's expensive to have a baby in a good birthing room in a good hospital, and insurance doesn't cover it at all in the States. Maybe most Americans can't afford the best scenario or can't afford the hospital at all, and so are opting for home birth and by implication the fire-engine intervention when something goes wrong? I'm sorry if I came across as excitable--but the baby doesn't have a say in the matter. I've always believed that the health and safety of children trumps the stupidity of their parents, if it comes down to a choice between the two (unfortunately the children almost always lose this war because they are still viewed as aquisitions and property).

As for saying that 1 in 3 women in Holland give birth at home--I'm sorry, I don't believe it. My family is from the Netherlands and I've been there and I've never heard anything like that. Although they probably have birthing facilities as advanced as Germany's. Why would anybody stay home? It was more like a spa vacation than a birth, and I got to stay for a week. Well, that was true in Canada also. And the pre and post natal care was thorough in both places. Cheaper than emergency room visits, you know.

thanks for crunching the numbers and telling the truth.

thinking it over, the people I know who tried to deliver at home (and didn't up going through with it), were trying to avoid that $4,000 baby bill that the hospital charges for a birth that may end up with the mother staying only a few hours.

Maybe we just need to make it affordable for Americans to have a baby in safety and *relative* comfort?

you are both condescending and rude, and your argument doesn't hold up very well either.

that anyone criticizing the women/couples for making the "birth experience" all about their romantic childbirth fantasies was being "insensitive"....after all who else is it supposed to be about, if not the woman?

Gee, you know, some of us were thinking the baby ought to be considered. There is one involved, you know.

This sort of thinking is at the root of the problem. The MD on the thread is so far the only one who has mentioned that reducing the number of human deaths should be the first priority. That doesn't mean that all that other stuff can't be done.

I'd like to say about women who go to hospitals wanting to exercise their "crunchy options" (love the phrase) and feeling that the hospital staff discourages it: all staff at many hospitals, from the head surgeon to the janitors, are very overburdened (thanks to the drive for maximum profit) and are trying to avoid what makes more work for them. You'd understand too if you worked 36 hour shifts. So you must be prepared to insist and maybe stand up for yourself a little bit. Remember they are paranoid about lawsuits, too. But at the end of the day you do have your rights, I hope....!

Guess I'll have to move back to Europe if I want to have another baby. You guys are scaring me.

the ayatollah is here appropriating the concerns of feminists to promote his own illiberal, anti-feminist agenda.

They do it all the time.

However if you have half a brain cell you can see through it.

Forcing women to veil or any variation thereof, of instituting a "modest" clothing standard for women that is based on the idea that the female body is to be kept under wraps because it is only for sex, is BAD.

Using "naked" women's bodies to sell totally unrelated products (beer, cars, etc.)in some humiliating way because "sex sells" and men perceive that women's bodies are only for sex is ALSO BAD.

The ayatollah is wrong. The advertising companies are wrong. What's the problem?

In either case the only real answer is to see a lot more undressed women in a nonsexual context. Sunbathers in Europe no longer pay much attention to female nudity on the beach, and don't understand slavering foreigners who want to go see the "nudie areas". After all, most of the women are not exactly pinup models (though many are attractive) and none are engaging in sexual activity.

The slavering foreigner sits there for a while, then grows up a little bit and gets over it. This is called desensitization. It works well.

Got a problem with nekkid women? Look at lots and lots of nekkid women. In six months you'll be over it. I promise.