You could always try hanging out in a chat room pretending to be a woman.

I correctly predicted your comeback - that men were only mean to each other because women want them to be - and in fact addressed it in my original response, then deleted it because it seemed rude to put words in your mouth.

So I'll address it now: at what point are men responsible for their own actions? If a man beats up another man to impress the ladies, is that the man's fault, or women's? What about murder, if a man drags a gay guy to death behind a truck, should a random woman be put on trial for it? Shouldn't people take responsibility for themselves, regardless of what their peers may or may not think of them? You're very big on saying that women never take responsibility, which makes your attitude that men can do anything and blame it on women ironic.

Carol Lloyd, there's a reason you keep getting bashed. Your take on this makes me deeply frustrated. You may be a woman, but you do not represent me.

Enforcing stereotypes? So if you're a girl, now you're no longer ALLOWED to like makeup and fashion? What if you're a black person, are you allowed to play basketball or listen to r&b, or would that be setting a bad example for the younguns? Must everyone be resolutely anti-type all the time?

It's not hard to find math books which aren't girly. That would be, um, all of them except this one. There is not a dearth of math books which do not feature designer handbags.

Pretty much everyone has had an encounter while young which will literally bring them to tears if they remember it, even years later. The exceptions are those people who were bullying instead of being bullied. The most popular girl in my high school, valedictorian, cheerleading captain, homecoming queen, said at our reunion that what she remembers most is the time the class jerk ragged on her publically for wearing the same outfit twice in one week. At least he attacked her to her face; you were attacked behind your back, and it makes perfect sense that you're having trouble getting over the feeling that other people are lying to you. These people damaged your trust.

Anyway. I'm sorry you don't like your face. I'm a character creator for video games, and I love "ugly" people. Pretty people look a lot alike. I spend a lot of time searching for interesting character faces. If I saw you, I might say, "Wow, what a great face." Some of the best looking people in the world aren't great beauties.

Women with time to burn used to host parties.

I've marched in the SF pride parade, with my gay sister. It seems to me that no one should be forced to be in any sort of parade. It doesn't make sense that three men who are opposed to homosexuality are forced to march in a pride parade. If I were gay, I wouldn't want them there.

In my earlier letter, I said that the firemen shouldn't be forced to march in support of a cause they don't believe in, and I stand by that. But there's another issue here, that of the catcalls. And it seems to me that these firemen are being jerks. Not wanting to march in support of something you don't support is one thing; suing the city over the conduct of spectators at a parade is another.

There seem to have been two groups of people yelling: bawdy gay people flaunting their sexuality, and homophobic harassers. Regarding the first: if it were the Thanksgiving Day parade and some drunks yelled sexual comments, would they sue the city over that? Regarding the second: it seems to me that learning what it feels like to be harassed as a member of a minority group isn't something anyone has the right to be offended by. So the firemen didn't enjoy being "gay for a day." Gay people have to face it every day.

I would absolutely feel the same if these had been women and a crowd of men yelled remarks at them. I've been on floats in Carnival parades, and the crowd does yell things that aren't necessarily out of Emily Post, and no one has a hissy over it.

I have to wonder: couldn't they have found four gay-friendly firemen? The guy who made them participate, couldn't he have been in the parade himself to set an example if he couldn't find anyone else who was willing?

I don't think I said what I meant to say very well. Let me try to clarify. I don't mean to say that gay people have no right to be offended by being mistreated. What I mean to say is, I don't think people who are not minorities should be specially offended at being treated as badly as minorities are treated. Straight guys do not have some special right to be treated better than gay guys do. Imagine a white guy being mistaken for a black and forced to sit in the back of the bus in the 50's. It seems to me the decent reaction would be sympathy for the oppressed, and outrage. If the reaction was, "They have no right to make me sit in the back, I'm white!" that would be pretty nasty.

Regarding the lesbian fire chief: yep, it'll be a good many decades before my town is ready to accept a female fire chief, and I assumed the chief was male. My mistake. I also assumed the fire chief had no particular horse in this race; if the fire chief is a lesbian, that adds a whole new dimension to this tale. I guess I better go read the referenced article.